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Who's sick of the Race Card being whipped in their face?

Who's making noise in and around Madison? What's new in the business of making music around town? Review shows and CDs here. Please keep all hype in Hype Exchange.

Are you sick of the Race card being pulled?

Yes
19
61%
No
7
23%
What are you talking about?
5
16%
 
Total votes : 31

Postby guacamole » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:13 pm

Mikey K wrote:And reverse discrimination and punitive actions are still discrimination. Two wrongs don't make a right.


Gah. Mikey K, I'm sure you weren't the first to use this phrase, but yours is the most recent post containing it so I gotta vent:

reverse discrimination.

That phrase means nothing. I realize that it can be used to clarify that one is speaking of discrimination against a non-minority group since the word "discrimination" tends to be linked with acts against a minority group, but discrimination is not a unidirectional thing. If a white person is disriminated against, it's not reverse anything. Same deal even if a less common occurrence.

An off example: A friend of mine that happens to be of Indian descent went to get her drivers license in New Orleans.

First she and her friend (of Taiwanese parentage) are asked for the immigration papers.

Then my friend proceeds to deal with an African-American DMV worker that won't believe that A) her eye color is black; or B) that her US-issued passport is indeed proof that she's an American citizen.

The DMV worker was, however, afraid my friend would be offended that her race had to be designated as "other" because she wasn't American-born.

Reverse nothing. Discrimination cuts all directions.
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Postby jjoyce » Wed Mar 10, 2004 10:46 pm

musiclover wrote:I've talked to lots of people in the community who have used this venue for fundraisers and they NEVER would have imagined that the owner would DIRESPECT them and take their profits and then CEASE COMMUNICATIONS.


Maybe others are thinking this and just not saying anything, but isn't there something slightly ajar when you think it's okay to advance these kinds of accusations (essentially theft and racism) without evidence AND anonymously?

First, I can't believe anyone is actually taking you seriously under these circumstances and second, I can't believe you're maintaining your moral superiority.

Come clean or shut up. It's not just weak, it's potentially legally dangerous to grind your grudges under this "musiclover" handle. Grow a pair and sign your name to this stuff.
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Postby m wildermuth » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:31 am

suicidalClyde wrote:Out of curiosity, how would you suggest one goes about doing something about it. White Privilege is rather a nebulous idea. While we can see it on a macro level it would be hard to identify it on a micro level. Calling someone racist because they aren't in control is not a healthy way to approach healing is it?


exactly. just because blacks in america are discriminated against (and they ARE discriminated against in insidious, often-times hidden ways) whether you like to believe it or not doesn't mean that I, as a white person, am placed in a better position because of it. white priviledge is a ridiculous accusation to direct at individuals anyhow. i can't change racial profiling, or make sure that black white collar workers get paid as much as white white collar workers that have the same amount of education.
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Postby musiclover » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:33 am

No more ajar than the original issue that started this conversation in the first place. As I told Sunspot Mike - I agree, maybe the race issue is mucking up the larger issue, but it still doesn't mean it isn't a factor. Life goes on and we all learn something from it. Moral superiority? I guess. I didn't steal anything. I just put it out there so others wouldn't make the same mistake as this is a forum where people go to discuss the venues that support the local music scene. I also believe that anonymity is rampant on this forum as is displayed by the Zach Brandon thread, which is more damaging than this one ever could be - and to more people. Anyway, we'll let justice do its thing and see if the scales of justice are truly colorblind.
Last edited by musiclover on Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby m wildermuth » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:34 am

jeffjames wrote:of course i'm not sick of people "pulling the race card". what a ridiculous topic, what do you expect, a bunch of people jumping in saying, oh yah, black people overreacting, yah yah, we're not racists. black people have it damn hard in this country. disenfranchise a group of people for hundreds of years, treat them like crap, and of course they are going to feel sensitive in regard to how you treat them. get over yourself, the next time somebody "pulls a race card" calm down and have a little empathy. i bet you're one of those people who doesn't mind laughing along to a good racial joke every now and then when your buddies bring one up. ugh.


remember that site blackpeopleloveus.com? i don't know what made me think of that just now...
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Postby Mikey K » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:23 am

guacamole wrote:
Mikey K wrote:And reverse discrimination and punitive actions are still discrimination. Two wrongs don't make a right.


Gah. Mikey K, I'm sure you weren't the first to use this phrase, but yours is the most recent post containing it so I gotta vent:

reverse discrimination.

That phrase means nothing. I realize that it can be used to clarify that one is speaking of discrimination against a non-minority group since the word "discrimination" tends to be linked with acts against a minority group, but discrimination is not a unidirectional thing. If a white person is disriminated against, it's not reverse anything. Same deal even if a less common occurrence.

An off example: A friend of mine that happens to be of Indian descent went to get her drivers license in New Orleans.

First she and her friend (of Taiwanese parentage) are asked for the immigration papers.

Then my friend proceeds to deal with an African-American DMV worker that won't believe that A) her eye color is black; or B) that her US-issued passport is indeed proof that she's an American citizen.

The DMV worker was, however, afraid my friend would be offended that her race had to be designated as "other" because she wasn't American-born.

Reverse nothing. Discrimination cuts all directions.


Good point, I rescind the use of the term "Reverse".

Lemme ask you this, though, and I'm sure it's FAR from an original point:

How come black people can go around with "Black Power" t-shirts on, but if I, for some INSANE reason, wanted to wear a "White Power" T-shirt, I'd get hauled away? Why is it ok to.... on and on and on, ad infinitum.

White men are 'discriminated' against a lot. I know, you're laughing, but hear me out. Not that I really care, not that I'm offended, not that it bothers or hurts me, but often the same arguments that other groups use to lay claim to 'discrimination' are ignored when applied to white guys.

Ok, hold your laughter for a moment and hear me out. Just for a day...one day....listen closely to the TV and Radio commercials you hear. How many portray White Men as doofuses? Often times, there will also be a woman as the 'smart one' and her husband or co-worker as the buffoon.

Is that any different than if the roles were reversed? Why? What if there was a commercial airing right now where the husband was smart, and his wife was a ditzy, irresponsible moron?

My point is, there's REAL discrimination and there's "I'm seeking out every excuse to fly the race, gender, sexual orientation, creed or religion card" so-called discrimination. REAL discrimination is very bad, hurtful and harmful. Where do you draw the line between the two?

If I had an answer to that, I'd be a real genius. Instead, I'm just a doofus white guy. Well, part Native American, too, so don't call me "Chief" or I'll kick your ass. bwah.
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Postby E_Dubs » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:15 pm

A couple of points here--

m wildermuth, you say white priviledge is a ridiculous accusation to level at some one. Look, it's not an accusation, it's reality. If you are born white, particularly a white male, you will benefit. You may not be actively seeking these benefits or even aware of them, but they exist. Nobody is calling you racist or anything else, but, due to no fault of your own, you were born into a system where you have an advantage of people of color. Now it is up to you deal with it. Take an honest look around and see who does the menial jobs that you come in to contact with-- who washes the dishes, who works as a night janitor, who works the checkout at Walgreens. How many white people work these jobs as opposed to people of color? How many MIDDLE AGED white people work these jobs as opposed to middle aged people of color? It's not hard to see alot of examples if you look around. All you have to do is examine your own beliefs and actions and attempt to be not just 'not racist' but in fact 'anti-racist'. Race isn't something white people have to deal with unless, for the most part, they want to. For people of color, that is not the case. Just remember that.


Mikey K-- do you really think a radio commercial that portrays a white male as a 'doufus' is the same as being denied a loan because you are black and a 'bad credit risk' or being followed around the store because people assume you are going to shoplift? White males are in THE dominant position of power. That pretty much opens them up to satire, don't you think? Look around and see how many positive portayals of white males there are as opposed to all other groups. Who runs the country and virtually all major businesses? You are not being discriminated against. Occasionally being made fun of? Sure. But then again, have you ever seen someone in black face makup? I rest my case. Oh also, Black Power is about rising up to gain equal rights, while White Power is about treating everyone that is not white as an inferior (both are way simplified I know). That is why it is not appropriate.

Race is a complex issue, which is why tensions often rise so high. But I think any conversation about it is good, even in this format. As long as people start thinking about it critically (white, black, latino, whatever) I think it is positive.
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Postby m wildermuth » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:53 pm

e dubs. you need to reread my post. i'm not saying racism doesn't exist. i'm saying white priviledge is a ridiculous concept that only few people in this country can be labeled as having. those people being the decendents of slave owners who have received substantial inheritance or social status from said descendents.

for average joe schmoe it is a hollow accusation. especially for people that live in wisconsin outside of milwaukee. because...quite frankly, outside of milwaukee there so few black people that its stupid to say that some schmuck in sheboygan got a loan or a job because one of the 10 black people in town was discriminated against 2 weeks ago at the local gas station.

i completely agree that race discrimination exists. but i don't benefit from it simply because i'm white. if i end up landing some job down the road simply because a black applicant that had more experience and education was denied because of his/her skin color, then we'll talk about my white priviledge. interestingly, i'm applying to law schools now, and i'll be damned if being white isn't HURTING my chances of getting in where i want.
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Postby Mikey K » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:29 am

E_Dubs wrote:

Mikey K-- do you really think a radio commercial that portrays a white male as a 'doufus' is the same as being denied a loan because you are black and a 'bad credit risk' or being followed around the store because people assume you are going to shoplift?


Does anybody EVER read what I've written? The answer to your stupid question is right above, but since you're an illiterate mook, I'll reinforce my above statement by saying OF COURSE NOT. That, you IDIOT, was my entire POINT. It ISN'T all the same, and some would like to think it is. And if I were of a particular minority group, I might be screaming and hollering about the commercials, but I'm not, and society has branded it "ok" to slam white males. That's just a fact.

There's varying levels of discrimination, ranging from, "You're really going out on a limb with this one, fer chrissakes grow a spine", to "Holy shit, this is WRONG WRONG WRONG, I can't believe this is happening to you" to acts of discrimination that are so profoundly ugly that I won't detail them here, but involving violence and hate crimes.

Screaming "Race" over a stinking stupid awards show is just about the most assanine thing I've ever heard. There's so many more meaningful battles to fight instead of jousting this windmill.
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Postby E_Dubs » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:06 pm

wildermuth--the idea of white priviledge is more along the lines of the fact that you benefit simply because you are white in a white dominated society than benefitting from dicrimination against all other races. Most people tend to hang around people similar to themselves right? It follows that, therefore, most people also hang out with people of the same race. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way people work. But, because your race 'group' is in a position of dominance, you benefit from it. This does not mean that someone denied an asian person a loan to give you one, but instead that you were more likley to get the loan in the first place because people tend to favor people who are like themselves (this is assuming that the banker was white, of course). Because more often than not the person in the position of power is white, you have a net benefit, whether it is a conscious decision or not. Which is what leads to affirmative action. Studies have proven that people tend to pick candidates of their own race over candidates of another race even when they are exactly equally qualified. Add in to the fact that alot of minority students come from extremely underfunded inner city schools (which says alot about the fucked up way our schools are funded), and you have a system that, due to more factors then I list here, favors the dominant race. Is it a perfect system? Not at all. But something has to be done to break the cycle. So, right now is your race hurting your chances to get in? Not really-- someone else's is helping them gain entry. And yeah, it sucks that it comes down to things like quotas and affermative action and such. But until the playing field is level, what else can people do?

Mikey K--

Yes, I know that you point out that discrimination exists. And maybe I didn't address your actual points. Are white males being made fun of from time to time in mainstream media? Sure. Are there certain white stereotypes that pop up from time to time? Yep. Happy now? But look at it this way. White is considered the norm in both society and the media. Everyone has an idea of 'white' is by simply watching TV. However, not nearly as many white people have an idea of what is to be black, or latino, or whatever. So, with a lack of knowledge, it is easy to fall into sterotypes, which are often offensive. If a white person was knowledgable about black culture, or asian culture or whatever, then they could, say, do a comedy sketch that saterizes all thoise groups. But, by and large, the people who make/control mainstream media do not have the knowledge to get other race subcultures right, so they become offensive. However, like I said before, everyone has an idea of what white is, so everyone can saterize it. If you want a good show that saterizes most races very well, look at the Chapelle Show.

As far as the race and MAMA awards goes, I don't think anyone is implying that there was an overtly racist decision being made to only showcase Madison's white music scene, but only that whoever did the nominating (person or group) accidentaly excluded any musicians that were not white. Which is a pretty big exclusion, and a valid observation.

Why the fuck is this thread on a music board anyway??
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Postby suicidalClyde » Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:50 pm

Most people tend to hang around people similar to themselves right? It follows that, therefore, most people also hang out with people of the same race


I find this to be an interesting statement. This is one of the first things I noticed when I moved to the midwest. (First thing was how shitty the roads were due to winter, and how people were alot more uptight here)I grew up in Southern California, and this isn't the way things work there. I seriously never thought about my friends being Indian, Black, Filapino, Mexican, white, etc.

I was frankly amazed at how common racism was in Indiana. (Only lived here a year and haven't got out much so don't want to include Madison) Not just on the White side, but on the black side too. People are much more aware of what color you are and make decisions based on that. In California some people thought I was a Nazi, and others thought I was like House of Pain because of my shaved head. It was easy to convince people I wasn't a nazi. Here, no one gives me the benefit of the doubt. I basically have to prove myself.

I'm not crying, I just always wondered what the difference was. The only thing I could think of is that there wasn't any minority really in the areas I lived in California. It was something like 18% Asian, 22% Black, 30% White and 30% Hispanic. So when you grow up hanging out at your friends house where they speak Spanish, and your other friends house where they speak Tagalog, you don't notice differences so much.... well at least I didn't, because it doesn't seem at all strange, but normal.
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Postby blunt » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:30 pm

BTW: I get followed around in stores, too.
When I finally get some benefits from being accidentally born "white", then I'll start feeling superior.

It ain't race, folks.
It's money and power.
And I've got neither.
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Postby Guest » Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:28 pm

blunt wrote:BTW: I get followed around in stores, too.
When I finally get some benefits from being accidentally born "white", then I'll start feeling superior.

It ain't race, folks.
It's money and power.
And I've got neither.


This is the most inteligent post in this entire thread.
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Postby jeffjames » Sun Mar 14, 2004 3:27 pm

chimaeranovus wrote:
blunt wrote:BTW: I get followed around in stores, too.
When I finally get some benefits from being accidentally born "white", then I'll start feeling superior.

It ain't race, folks.
It's money and power.
And I've got neither.


This is the most inteligent post in this entire thread.


no, its the most worst post in a thread full of posts that miss the point. you should be ashamed of yourselves. you're like rich kids who think a silver spoon is worthless cause having money doesn't change the fact that they are still a big nerd. put yourself in somebody else's shoes for once. these sheltered "duh, white people have it just as hard too beliefs" are gross. i'd say "start a support group for yourselves" with sarcasm, but you practically already done that judging by the number of people who had to make posts in some way de-emphasizing the reality of white priveledge.

three benefits from being born white:

1. No racial profiling. In terms for forons: blunt, this means you can go and smoke weed while comparing the merits of Supertramp records all day and never getting pulled over for suspician just for happening to be in a white neighborhood.
2. Republicans (and democrats too for that matter) you must enounter in everyay life, whether its a trip to the bank or wherever, will talk to you as though you haven't suffered minimal brain damage.
3. If you move to the suburbs, you don't need to worry that your child will have to grow up in an environment where he will be known as "the black kid" and everything that goes along with that for 13 years straight.

and a million more, including all the subtle nuisances of travel and social interaction, child adoption, salary statistics, medical statistics saying how very much more likely surgeons will do their jobs successfully if the patient is a white male. somebody start a post whining about affirmative action and the like and tell me it more than makes up for everything, with a straight face. it'll be cute.

but, i suppose, um, other people don't exactly apply to narrow-minded, self-centered outlooks on the world. "hey, if it doesn't seem to affect me myself, well least i never notice it....then it must not be an issue at all! i'm still poor too, oh-so POOR! i almost had to buy *gasp* a CD instead of another vinyl record to continue to fatten to my vast collection the other day. So if i ever do see some benefits for myself, only then will i acknowledge these issues exist in reality! yes, yes, its all about money and power folks...which, well, happen to be held and doled out by white racist CEOs and supervisors still stuck at lovely Madison plateaus too for that matter...but that's not the point!
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Postby blunt » Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:24 pm

jeffjames wrote:
chimaeranovus wrote:
blunt wrote:BTW: I get followed around in stores, too.
When I finally get some benefits from being accidentally born "white", then I'll start feeling superior.

It ain't race, folks.
It's money and power.
And I've got neither.


This is the most inteligent post in this entire thread.


no, its the most worst post in a thread full of posts that miss the point. you should be ashamed of yourselves. you're like rich kids who think a silver spoon is worthless cause having money doesn't change the fact that they are still a big nerd. put yourself in somebody else's shoes for once. these sheltered "duh, white people have it just as hard too beliefs" are gross. i'd say "start a support group for yourselves" with sarcasm, but you practically already done that judging by the number of people who had to make posts in some way de-emphasizing the reality of white priveledge.

three benefits from being born white:

1. No racial profiling. In terms for forons: blunt, this means you can go and smoke weed while comparing the merits of Supertramp records all day and never getting pulled over for suspician just for happening to be in a white neighborhood.
2. Republicans (and democrats too for that matter) you must enounter in everyay life, whether its a trip to the bank or wherever, will talk to you as though you haven't suffered minimal brain damage.
3. If you move to the suburbs, you don't need to worry that your child will have to grow up in an environment where he will be known as "the black kid" and everything that goes along with that for 13 years straight.

and a million more, including all the subtle nuisances of travel and social interaction, child adoption, salary statistics, medical statistics saying how very much more likely surgeons will do their jobs successfully if the patient is a white male. somebody start a post whining about affirmative action and the like and tell me it more than makes up for everything, with a straight face. it'll be cute.

but, i suppose, um, other people don't exactly apply to narrow-minded, self-centered outlooks on the world. "hey, if it doesn't seem to affect me myself, well least i never notice it....then it must not be an issue at all! i'm still poor too, oh-so POOR! i almost had to buy *gasp* a CD instead of another vinyl record to continue to fatten to my vast collection the other day. So if i ever do see some benefits for myself, only then will i acknowledge these issues exist in reality! yes, yes, its all about money and power folks...which, well, happen to be held and doled out by white racist CEOs and supervisors still stuck at lovely Madison plateaus too for that matter...but that's not the point!



(On a personal note: my significant partner for 6 years was accidentally black, just like I'm accidentally white.
Hell, I'm a mongrel mutt, and adopted: I have no race or people for support. White people think I'm weird and a fringe member and therefore suspicious.
We both saw and experieinced things from each other's cultures and grew from it.)

You make some good point and reminders jeffjames, but sound a bit like "The Angry Black Man," e.g., the unprovoked Supertramp stab.
Here's some reminders for you:

1) No one is arguing that there isn't prevalent, albeit less overt, racism against "browner" people. Duh. But the problem is using and re-using and then over-using that argument to the point it becomes an excuse for your cry-baby failures.

2) Many brown people point to being followed in stores or profiled in neighborhoods: BUT that is often the result of their own actions and that big chip on their shoulder--- the one that's looking and hoping for some sort of incident that can be blown out of proportion.
Try not looking over your shoulder constantly, and not standing in the middle of the street.

3) Madison can be very naive in evaluating its own problem with and solution to racism, and can be frustratingly sincere, and eager and hypocritical and dumb. But, hey, that's white people for ya!

4) And godammit, don't be so self-righteous: the minute brown people have the reins of power they will also become corrupt and brutal and selfish and controlling!
The color of our skin doesn't dictate our compassion or intelligence.
Money does.
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