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Who's sick of the Race Card being whipped in their face?

Who's making noise in and around Madison? What's new in the business of making music around town? Review shows and CDs here. Please keep all hype in Hype Exchange.

Are you sick of the Race card being pulled?

Yes
19
61%
No
7
23%
What are you talking about?
5
16%
 
Total votes : 31

Postby Stepbrother » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:06 pm

I'm so sick of having this large and dark 'local music' whipped in my face. It makes me feel inadequate.

null vote.
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Postby jeffjames » Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:02 pm

well, that's an improvement over the previous at least. your comment about how you don't get see benefits from being born white for yourself (in a country where whites are the majority) is just an unbelievably stupid thing to say. reducing it to a money/power issue as you did is stupid too, because a ton of cultural issues and divides exist that have nothing to do with that. how its much harder to place non-white babies in foster homes or adoptive homes, peer issues, ect.

and its gets tiring noticing three pages worth of forum addicts dying to comment on how "black people overreact and bring stuff on themselves and white people would have it just as bad if blacks had the money/power!" sure, black people overreact sometimes, have some empathy or look at the white culpability behind it instead of bitching about how they overreact. instead of making posts such as "they overreact..see!...see!!", how about just one post about the things *white* people do wrong? downplaying the reality of white privledge and choosing to focus on all the things black people do wrong just says a lot about where your head is at in regard to racial issues, that's all i'm saying.

also, for the record everyone, casually dropping a line about dating/knowing a black person doesn't exclude you from having your head up your own insular ass, any more than it did in the 1800's when white men would elope with Native American women and have cute little pre-online-forum fireside chats with other white men about all the things Native Americans did wrong about trying to integrate themselves within white society (i wonder if standing in the street waiting for something to happen or looking over their shoulders too much in stores were some of them?)...anyhow, things worked themselves out great in the end!
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Postby Guest » Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:27 pm

Yes, race relations in this country are problematic, however, as long as people are willing to accept anti-white racism and ridiculous myths like ââ?¬Å?white privilegeââ?¬?, it isnââ?¬â?¢t going to get any better. Further, we need to differentiate between cultural issues and racial ones.

Now, before anyone starts calling me cracker, Iââ?¬â?¢ll disclose that my racial classification is ââ?¬Å?otherââ?¬?.
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Postby pjbogart » Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:52 am

chimaeranovus wrote:Yes, race relations in this country are problematic, however, as long as people are willing to accept anti-white racism and ridiculous myths like ââ?¬Å?white privilegeââ?¬?, it isnââ?¬â?¢t going to get any better. Further, we need to differentiate between cultural issues and racial ones.

Now, before anyone starts calling me cracker, Iââ?¬â?¢ll disclose that my racial classification is ââ?¬Å?otherââ?¬?.


Quite a few posts ago, I tried to make this point, but I'm not sure anyone really got it... you should really elaborate on this "cultural/racial" difference.

Sometimes generalizations are perfectly warranted... not because they apply to ALL people of a racial group, but because they apply to enough of them that its not terribly irrational to EXPECT that people within that group will behave in a certain way. Asian people have difficulties speaking R's and L's. Yes, it's a generalization... no, it's not unwarranted. Do I discriminate against Asian people who can't say their R's or L's? No, actually my ear is more or less trained to ignore it and their speech sounds perfectly normal to me unless I'm listening for it (and now, dammit, I probably will just to see if I'm right). The issue isn't RACIAL, it's CULTURAL... Asian kids who grow up speaking Western languages have no difficulty with their R's or L's. There's nothing about an Asian person's tongue that makes and R or L impossible to speak (it's an aural thing, actually).

Some cultural things are less benign than Asian R's and L's or the Caligraphy message on the back of an Hispanic's car. These things are more curiosities than annoyances... it's kind of funny to notice it, but you don't think less of the person for it. Other cultural differences are less benign and they annoy the crap out of people. For instance, lets say you're at the convenience store and an African American is standing at the counter making a scene... maybe they're complaining about the price of something, or maybe they get rung up and then walk away from the counter to go get a candy bar, leaving the line standing there waiting for them. Jump on me all you want, but I managed convenience stores for several years and this is NOT an invalid generalization. It happens ALL the time. No, the price of the Pepsi is NOT negotiable. Yes, if you leave the counter, you're going to the back of the line. Is it annoying? Hell yeah. Do I hate African Americans because they had a tendency to make a scene? Not really, but I DID find it REALLY annoying, and more importantly, the other customers in line found it really annoying and THAT costs me business (they'll just shop somewhere else).

Is there something about having dark skin that causes you to negotiate the price of a can of Pepsi? No, definitely not. It's a really annoying cultural tendency. Do all African Americans negotiate the price of a can of Pepsi? No, definitely not. But it's kind of curious that a white, hispanic or asian person would never do such a thing. Why is that?

The real kicker is this... African Americans seem to have a monopoly on annoying cultural habits. It's not Racism... there's no biological difference in an African American that causes them to stiff the waiter or delivery driver. And you can gripe about it all you want, but you're not going to convince the security guy at Wal-Mart not to keep an eye on the African American teenagers that are hanging out by the CD's and spending more time trying to figure out who's watching them than they are trying to figure out which CD they should buy. Do all African Americans stiff the waiter and steal CD's? Not by a long shot, but a disproportionate number DO and if you had the job as a waiter or in theft prevention, you'd know this.

So what's the problem here? Is PJ just a big ole racist bastard? I don't think so. I always tried my hardest to hire African Americans in my convenience stores... I thought it was good PR and my African American employees could bust shoplifters without having to endure the "racism card." Believe it or not, far more African Americans are honest than dishonest, but there is a disturbing percentage who are dishonest. I always got the impression that it was a "stickin' it to the man" thing and 95% of the time, I just kicked them out rather than calling the police (bad PR). You'd be a fool to work a convenience store and not perk up when African American teenagers are perusing your candy bars. White kids steal too, just look for the kids who are looking around to see who's watching them rather than looking at the candy bars. But statistics don't lie, and my experience is that African Americans lead the pack in the candy bar theft department... followed by Whites (Hispanics and Asians almost NEVER steal, or are just so good at it that you can't catch them).

The really tragic thing in my experiences as a clerk, manager, waiter and delivery driver is that most of my co-workers or employees were the people most likely to be non-racist and many of them became jaded over time (like myself). African American employees found it depressing and humiliating to see the numbers stack up the way they do. It seems to me that if you wanted to end racism, stiffing your waiter is a bad place to start, even if it gives you some satisfaction that you're "sticking it to the man." Chances are, the 20-30 age bracket that makes up most of this work force are the least likely to prejudge, but you can always teach them to be racists if you wish.

Despite my checkered relations with the African American community, I try to keep an open mind at all times. I don't think I treat them terribly differently. If I had a job as a waiter, I'd probably give an Hispanic family slightly better service. I'm trying to earn a living, right? If I'm not rewarded for my service, I give my service to someone who WILL reward me. That's just plain logic. If I deliver a pizza to a regular customer who happens to be African American but also tips me reasonably, I'm not going to treat them any differently than White folks. That's just plain logic. BTW, in my experience as a waiter and a delivery driver, Asians tip for shit too and they don't get the same level of service either, but they get what they deserve. Whites and Hispanics seem to appreciate your extra effort the most, so that's who you dole it out to.

In sum, nothing in this post presumes that there is anything about Whites, Asians, Hispanics or African Americans that is inherently different. All of the differences seem to be culturally accepted norms. The generalizations seem to stick and if you think they're unfair, do something about it. Tell your Asian friend that they need to tip the waiter 15% and the pizza driver $2-$3. If you think that it's unfair that you are being watched in the convenience store, quit looking around to see if you are being watched... I never paid much attention to people who seemed unconcerned with my presence (and they were probably the best thieves). Don't expect the guy at Wal-Mart to be swayed by your rhetoric... chances are, he's been doing this long enough that statistics are all that matter anymore.

It would be a wonderful world if we could all just get along, but the black folks across the hall crank their bass so high that it alters my heartbeat, and I don't even like rap music.

Jump on me all you want... it's an honest post (perhaps too honest).
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Postby blunt » Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:33 am

jeffjames wrote:well, that's an improvement over the previous at least. your comment about how you don't get see benefits from being born white for yourself (in a country where whites are the majority) is just an unbelievably stupid thing to say. reducing it to a money/power issue as you did is stupid too, because a ton of cultural issues and divides exist that have nothing to do with that. how its much harder to place non-white babies in foster homes or adoptive homes, peer issues, ect.

and its gets tiring noticing three pages worth of forum addicts dying to comment on how "black people overreact and bring stuff on themselves and white people would have it just as bad if blacks had the money/power!" sure, black people overreact sometimes, have some empathy or look at the white culpability behind it instead of bitching about how they overreact. instead of making posts such as "they overreact..see!...see!!", how about just one post about the things *white* people do wrong? downplaying the reality of white privledge and choosing to focus on all the things black people do wrong just says a lot about where your head is at in regard to racial issues, that's all i'm saying.

also, for the record everyone, casually dropping a line about dating/knowing a black person doesn't exclude you from having your head up your own insular ass, any more than it did in the 1800's when white men would elope with Native American women and have cute little pre-online-forum fireside chats with other white men about all the things Native Americans did wrong about trying to integrate themselves within white society (i wonder if standing in the street waiting for something to happen or looking over their shoulders too much in stores were some of them?)...anyhow, things worked themselves out great in the end!



Some of my best friends are white! :lol:
(I only told you something personal because I think it adds a lot to my perspective. How diverse is your circle of friends?)
You continue to demonstrate that you don't understand me or my view, just your own.

Look at the world.
See all the corruption and violence?
See all the brown and white people ensalving, repressing, and killing each other?
Please.

A lot of your and my and their and our problem is based on culture, not exactly race. for instance (and to be able to converse, we need to unfortunately speak in generlisms): young American black men have a different experince here than young African black men.
Why?
Because of culture, apperance, and behavior--not race.
An African black is usually very polite and works hard.
Same stereotype goes for Asians.
American blacks are often seen as surly, impolite, and "act so black", that they are misunderstood and perhaps not given the respect they otherwise deserve.
I know to get a job I need to dress "nice" and act "subservient".
Do you know how many times I've been at places and seen black guys try to get jobs, dressed like a thug and by being belligerent and non-communicative?
And what's their excuse? "I ain't gonna act white."
It's unfortunate for you if you equate intelligence, the ability to speak your homeland's language clearly, and conform to society's rules as being "white."
In this society, which none of us in this discussion created, the way to be happy is to strike a compromise between the way you want to be and the way society wants you to be. The less you do that, the less you receive the benefits of this society.
Not comforming to the will of the White Man's Society is what put me in jail and keeps me poor.

One of the reasons I satyed out this thread for so long was because of all the ridiculous poorly thought out vitriol.
No intelligent person will deny the horrible things white people have done.
(Wait--who's white? Italians? Romanians? French? British?)
But no intelligent person can deny all the brilliant wonderful things white people have done.
And if you would disengage your insular ass-head configuration, and read some history to learn instead of to find fuel for revenge, you'd see all the brilliant and horrible things black peple have done.

I am so sick of arguments over who has suffered most and who is the worst evil.
We all suffer and we're all evil.
But somehwere beneath the rhetoric and the pain and anger we can meet as all One: expressions of life.
You don't see flowers lynching bees.
You don't see lakes shooting the sun with a Glock.
The Universe in all it's diversity gets along--just as we should.

Take a lesson from the Mideast bullshit--it never stops because each death requires a revenge death.
Sounds a lot like nner city gang shit, doesn't it?
No one even remembers the original insult!
The only way to stop is for both sides to....STOP.
A war wouldn't work if everyone refused to fight.

I have no problem with anybody unless they try to harm my fleshbucket.
Otherwise, we're friends.
Is it that difficult to recognize the Source of Life within each other?
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Postby jammybastard » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:36 am

blunt wrote:
jeffjames wrote:well, that's an improvement over the previous at least. your comment about how you don't get see benefits from being born white for yourself (in a country where whites are the majority) is just an unbelievably stupid thing to say. reducing it to a money/power issue as you did is stupid too, because a ton of cultural issues and divides exist that have nothing to do with that. how its much harder to place non-white babies in foster homes or adoptive homes, peer issues, ect.

and its gets tiring noticing three pages worth of forum addicts dying to comment on how "black people overreact and bring stuff on themselves and white people would have it just as bad if blacks had the money/power!" sure, black people overreact sometimes, have some empathy or look at the white culpability behind it instead of bitching about how they overreact. instead of making posts such as "they overreact..see!...see!!", how about just one post about the things *white* people do wrong? downplaying the reality of white privledge and choosing to focus on all the things black people do wrong just says a lot about where your head is at in regard to racial issues, that's all i'm saying.

also, for the record everyone, casually dropping a line about dating/knowing a black person doesn't exclude you from having your head up your own insular ass, any more than it did in the 1800's when white men would elope with Native American women and have cute little pre-online-forum fireside chats with other white men about all the things Native Americans did wrong about trying to integrate themselves within white society (i wonder if standing in the street waiting for something to happen or looking over their shoulders too much in stores were some of them?)...anyhow, things worked themselves out great in the end!



Some of my best friends are white! :lol:
(I only told you something personal because I think it adds a lot to my perspective. How diverse is your circle of friends?)
You continue to demonstrate that you don't understand me or my view, just your own.

Look at the world.
See all the corruption and violence?
See all the brown and white people ensalving, repressing, and killing each other?
Please.

A lot of your and my and their and our problem is based on culture, not exactly race. for instance (and to be able to converse, we need to unfortunately speak in generlisms): young American black men have a different experince here than young African black men.
Why?
Because of culture, apperance, and behavior--not race.
An African black is usually very polite and works hard.
Same stereotype goes for Asians.
American blacks are often seen as surly, impolite, and "act so black", that they are misunderstood and perhaps not given the respect they otherwise deserve.
I know to get a job I need to dress "nice" and act "subservient".
Do you know how many times I've been at places and seen black guys try to get jobs, dressed like a thug and by being belligerent and non-communicative?
And what's their excuse? "I ain't gonna act white."
It's unfortunate for you if you equate intelligence, the ability to speak your homeland's language clearly, and conform to society's rules as being "white."
In this society, which none of us in this discussion created, the way to be happy is to strike a compromise between the way you want to be and the way society wants you to be. The less you do that, the less you receive the benefits of this society.
Not comforming to the will of the White Man's Society is what put me in jail and keeps me poor.

One of the reasons I satyed out this thread for so long was because of all the ridiculous poorly thought out vitriol.
No intelligent person will deny the horrible things white people have done.
(Wait--who's white? Italians? Romanians? French? British?)
But no intelligent person can deny all the brilliant wonderful things white people have done.
And if you would disengage your insular ass-head configuration, and read some history to learn instead of to find fuel for revenge, you'd see all the brilliant and horrible things black peple have done.

I am so sick of arguments over who has suffered most and who is the worst evil.
We all suffer and we're all evil.
But somehwere beneath the rhetoric and the pain and anger we can meet as all One: expressions of life.
You don't see flowers lynching bees.
You don't see lakes shooting the sun with a Glock.
The Universe in all it's diversity gets along--just as we should.

Take a lesson from the Mideast bullshit--it never stops because each death requires a revenge death.
Sounds a lot like nner city gang shit, doesn't it?
No one even remembers the original insult!
The only way to stop is for both sides to....STOP.
A war wouldn't work if everyone refused to fight.

I have no problem with anybody unless they try to harm my fleshbucket.
Otherwise, we're friends.
Is it that difficult to recognize the Source of Life within each other?


Blunt,
you articulated my philosphy exactly.
When people realise that the common discussion of "race" has nothing to do with solving the actual problems and instead has more to do with keeping us destabilised and unable to deal with the real threats to our well being then maybe we'll have an enlightened discussion.
In the meantime these discussion resemble Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" where we think we know and understand the issue yet what we are really discussing is the shadow and not the true image.
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Postby pjbogart » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:08 pm

Pulling out the big guns, aren't you Jammy? Referencing "The Republic" is so last year. Seriously, though... for anyone curious, you can find the allegory of the cave in Plato's Republic, 514a-517b. The read is sometimes kind of convoluted and slow, but if you take the time to think about each idea expressed (sometimes down to each LINE), "The Republic" is an eye opening philosophical experience.
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Postby blunt » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:14 pm

blunt
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Postby blunt » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:14 pm

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Postby jeffjames » Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:07 pm

blunt, i'm sick of chatting with you, its a waste of time with you because you don't respond to my statements so there is a lack of exhange of ideas. you just go on whatever tangent you feel like without tackling the issues at hand. you toss out reductive, stupid statements, i.e. "i don't see how being white gets me any benefits in my life" , "its all just a money/power issue" and then when i make points against their basic premises and foundations, you don't reply to the issue at hand, you act like you never said those things in the first place and move on to ramble about something else completely. you're one of those people who thinks if you keep talking and moving, that's all you have to do to win the debate--you don't respond at all to logical point/counterpoint.

of course black people have done bad things in history too...duh! you tell me that, and act like you're explaining E=mc2 or something, with lengthy, flowery prose, as if we are all priveledged to witness you sharing this almighty idea just now... wake up, lol! and what's with the big "you don't see flowers lynching bees", ect. rant? nature is an ongoing war as anybody with half a brain knows...Darwinian survival of the fittest, even at the cute pretty little flowers level. weeds and trees occupying every square inch of soil they can get their hands on and venus fly traps chowing down. but despite your nonsense, i can see the point you were trying to make is that the world would be better if people stop fighting and there should be peace. well, um, DUH. and no matter how much peace and hippie love stuff you dress your words up with, that's a six-year old's idea of tackling problems. saying "everybody should just stop" makes me really glad you aren't in a position of power.

and now, you say that the solution to the problem is that black men need to CONFORM to white society? they were brought here as slaves, and now grow up in ghettos starting with tons of setbacks, and racial problems are their fault because they don't try hard enough to act white enough!? yes blunt, I must agree, the solution isn't understanding/empathy/institutional reforms like i had thought, it is one-sided CONFORMITY. those blacks, they just keep screwing things up for themselves, don't they? if only they would see the light! blunt, you are really on to something profound here, conformity as a simple cure-all to all societal problems! let me get those damn catholics in northern ireland on the phone right now...
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Postby pjbogart » Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:33 pm

Asking people to conform is unfair, but if you CHOOSE not to conform, you're going to have to deal with the consequences, whether you feel the consequences are fair or not.

The whole "we didn't ask to be brought here, we were forced into slavery" is old and tiresome. I guess I feel a bit guilty about it, but there's really nothing I can do about it, and it certainly doesn't affect my everyday interaction with African Americans. I don't think it helps African Americans either, in particular the children who are given a convenient excuse for failure. It's much easier to give up when you convince yourself that there's no way to win.

That said, you're right about the odds being stacked against African Americans. They grow up in poverty in astonishing numbers and are forced to endure discrimination at virtually every turn in life. Employment, education, police harrassment... you name it, they endure it.

It's like a race up the bleachers of Camp Randall stadium, except the African American is carrying a fifty pound bag of flour. Of course I won, I'd have to trip and break my leg to lose that race. So the African American says to me, "that's not fair... I'm stronger than you and faster than you."

Yeah, but you forgot to drop the bag of flour.
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Postby jammybastard » Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:15 pm

pjbogart wrote:Pulling out the big guns, aren't you Jammy? Referencing "The Republic" is so last year. Seriously, though... for anyone curious, you can find the allegory of the cave in Plato's Republic, 514a-517b. The read is sometimes kind of convoluted and slow, but if you take the time to think about each idea expressed (sometimes down to each LINE), "The Republic" is an eye opening philosophical experience.


ROFL. Big guns! Yeah that's me. Wait until I put it in a song.
Referecing "The Republic" is timeless. It's "no year" and "every year" forever.
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Postby blunt » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:14 pm

JeffJames:

Read pjboagrt's last post.

Now: read your own last post.
I'm surprised at the things you say to me; they apply equally (if not more) to you.
I have responded specifically to a lot of what you say; most of what you say though is bullshit I've heard a million times before, and the rest is you trying to hurt me verbally by questioning my intelligence, or by misquoting me.
I never said anyone had to CONFORM to society; I explained very clearly that if you want to get ahead in ANY society, you have to follow some of the customs and etiquette.
I explained how my noncomformity has hurt me in this society.

I also never said "I don't see why being white gets me benefits."
Being white is great here in the USA, just as being an Arab would work well in Saudi Arabia!
I like being a guy, too, because I can stand up to pee.
Hell, I keep explaining how we are ALL ACCIDENTALLY BORN.
Being a member of a race is beyong our choosing.

But I am tired of the party-line freshman-in-college bullshit about "black people can't be racist because we don't have the power."
Crap.
Anyone can stupidly choose to judge people on their looks, their color, their culture, etc.

Your anger and resentment over perceived slights or disadvantages muddies up your ability to have an "exchage of ideas."
I keep honestly opening up to you, telling you how I feel, who I am, some personal experiences to demonstrate how I see the world: we are all expressions of life and we have ALL COME FROM THE SAME SOURCE.
If there are people out there who are trying to keep you down because of your color---THEY'RE EVIL IDIOTS!
These very same evil idiots also keep me and a whole bunch of other people down.

And finally, you say you keep making pints against my basic premise:
which is, we are all on this together and are One underneath our clothes and skin and thoughts.
How could you possibly argue against THAT?

Maybe to get back to the original subject: getting tired of having the race card played too often.
Lately, it has been. Which dilutes its importance when race really is a factor.
Remember the girl at the UW who raised a huge fuss over the word "niggardly" being used in class?--the word is not at all related etymologically to the "N" word. She embarrassed herself and all intelligent people everywhere, and did a grave disservice to her "race."

In a town where there are only three black people around anyway, the idea that the MAMA's might appear to be too white is only a result of Madison here and now.
It has absolutely nothing to do with excluding different colors of people.
Last edited by blunt on Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Mikey K » Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:23 pm

New drinking game:

You have to drink every time someone says race, racism, or racist on the forum.

<hic>
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Postby jeffjames » Wed Mar 17, 2004 6:28 am

blunt wrote:But I am tired of the party-line freshman-in-college bullshit about "black people can't be racist because we don't have the power."
Crap..


well duh. that's obviously true, a ten-year-old knows that too. dunno why exactly you think i've been saying that? but then you thought i honestly believed black people never have done anything wrong in history too, god knows where you got that notion from...?

blunt wrote:And finally, you say you keep making pints against my basic premise:
which is, we are all on this together and are One underneath our clothes and skin and thoughts.
How could you possibly argue against THAT?


??? i was never even coming close to arguing against that. of course that is true, myself and everybody else know that, but thanks for sharing your words of wisdom here anyhow, lol. i'd go on but you're a total waste of my time. lay off the drugs, unless your brain just naturally works like that, in which case, my condolences. seriously, i feel kind of bad for starting this row with you, now, and shouldn't have gone hard on you. you gotta deal with people as they are, i guess. best wishes, no sarcasm. jeff
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