MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Saturday, November 1, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 25.0° F  Fair
Collapse Photo Bar

Citizen Dave on Guns - Unoriginal Ideas of the Week

Comments on the paper, the website, the mobile site and all other Isthmus-generated products go here.

Re: Citizen Dave on Guns - Unoriginal Ideas of the Week

Postby O.J. » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:06 am

ArturoBandini wrote: You can tone down the gun-empowerment culture without eliminating the Second Amendment.


What is your proposal?
O.J.
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2993
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:13 am

Re: Citizen Dave on Guns - Unoriginal Ideas of the Week

Postby wack wack » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:24 am

ArturoBandini wrote:
wack wack wrote:Dave asked two questions: Are Germany, Britain, and Japan any less violent than America? Is the rate of depression any less?

Your information seems to affirm his first assertion, does nothing to address the second.
No, the facts speak against Dave's answer of "I don't think so", applied to his first question. The facts suggest that Germany and Japan are much less murderous, per capita, than the U.S. even if you strip out all gun crimes from all countries in question.


So violence = homicide? There is no violence that does not result in murder?

FAIL. Try again. And try to include some information about depression rates in said countries too, so it at least looks like you're trying to argue genuinely. Hey, it may even help your position!
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3158
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Citizen Dave on Guns - Unoriginal Ideas of the Week

Postby snoqueen » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:35 am

...people often make bad decisions that are amplified by the high-powered devices they have access to. But to hammer the original point home, the solution to these problems is not to ban cars, guns, alcohol or cell phones, but try to help people develop and practice foresight and thoughtfulness.


Sounds like this would be part of it (AB's solution, not to step on his right to answer for himself).

Trying to get people to make better decisions is laudable but a glacially slow process. We've cut down a bit on drunk driving since stronger laws and penalties came on line in the early 1970s, but everyone reading this will probably agree we've still got way too many instances of DWI and the injuries and deaths to prove it. Do we really want to travel the same slow learning curve with concealed weapons, and handicap our progress by not using strong laws? Right now we just passed the weakest gun law in the country, putting us back to where we were in the 1960s with drunk driving, which at that time was treated as a joke. You could drive any way you wanted to if you didn't hit anything, in other words.

It's an imperfect analogy but a valid one given the way people use bad judgment with powerful instruments.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11664
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Citizen Dave on Guns - Unoriginal Ideas of the Week

Postby Crockett » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:44 am

This "Stand Your Ground Law" is insane:

"In Florida, if people feel they are in imminent danger from being killed or badly injured, they do not have to retreat, even if it would seem reasonable to do so. They have the right to “stand their ground” and protect themselves."

I'm ok with people owning/carrying guns for extreme self-defense, but with that right your choice should be escape and/or stand down THEN shoot. With rights come responsibilities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/21/us/ju ... ml?_r=1&hp
Crockett
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:37 am

Re: Citizen Dave on Guns - Unoriginal Ideas of the Week

Postby ArturoBandini » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:08 am

wack wack wrote:So violence = homicide? There is no violence that does not result in murder?
All homicide is certainly violence, but not all violence is homicide, obviously. Statistics on generic "violent" crime will be difficult to compare between countries because laws differ on what is considered a violent crime. Murder is something that is pretty universally considered a violent crime, statistics are available, and it's also among the most important types of violent crime to try to prevent (rape, child abuse, assault would be others).
wack wack wrote:FAIL. Try again. And try to include some information about depression rates in said countries too, so it at least looks like you're trying to argue genuinely. Hey, it may even help your position!
I don't see why my points should be considered a FAIL. Murder statistics (and correlated gun crime numbers) are not a complete picture of violent crime between countries, but my limited data certainly goes against Mr. Dave's totally unsupported claim.

I googled around about depression statistics and didn't find a definitive international dataset. It seems that depression is common in most developed economies. Thus, I don't really have an argument with Mr. Dave's (totally unsupported) assertion that Germany and Japan's depression rates are similar to those of the U.S.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: Citizen Dave on Guns - Unoriginal Ideas of the Week

Postby Detritus » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:21 am

ArturoBandini wrote:I googled around about depression statistics and didn't find a definitive international dataset. It seems that depression is common in most developed economies. Thus, I don't really have an argument with Mr. Dave's (totally unsupported) assertion that Germany and Japan's depression rates are similar to those of the U.S.

I'm not sure there is a universally applicable definition of depression--it's very much bound up with culture. You could look at suicide rates as a proxy for depression, but I don't think even that is particularly useful. Response to depression is as much a cultural thing as depression itself. It could be possible that one culture tends to respond to depression more by turning inward (isolation, social withdrawl, suicide) than it does by lashing out (domestic violence, running amok, etc.).

Anyway, I'm not sure why the link needs to be established between depression and gun-based injury or death outside the case of suicide by firearm. You don't have to be depressed to shoot somebody either deliberately or accidentally.
Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Previous

Return to Comments on Isthmus & isthmus.com

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

cron
Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar