MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Saturday, November 22, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 44.0° F  Fog/Mist
Collapse Photo Bar

LOST

How can cultural elitists like ourselves put TV in the Culture category? Well, where the hell else is it going to fit?

Opinion on Lost?

This show is a sign that the TV show as an art form is not dead.
21
53%
This show sucked, and I think you're insane for liking it.
0
No votes
Just a good show.
4
10%
You only like this because you're insane. Get help.
0
No votes
Never seen it.
11
28%
It just sucks in a regular way.
4
10%
 
Total votes : 40

Re: LOST

Postby TheBookPolice » Thu May 14, 2009 11:08 am

Dead bodies on the Island appear to be eligible for reincarnation by Jacob's counterpart (the Internets are calling him Esau). Thus, Christian. Yemi. Now Locke. There does appear to be something about Locke, however, that gets Esau through the door to Jacob's house, thus the loophole. The previous attempts were not powerful or special enough. Both Christian and Yemi definitely manipulated Locke to get to the point where he could be reinhabited by Esau, who in my opinion has to have something to do with the Smoke Monster.

This forum doesn't seem especially welcoming for a level of nerdery like LOST fanboydom. But I'm always up for it.
TheBookPolice
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 8404
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: The mystical Far East

Re: LOST

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 14, 2009 11:27 am

What house? Do you mean the cabin? It was a break in the line of ash. It's unclear whether that let Esau in or Esau out - depends where Esau was at the time. Why are we calling him Esau anyway?
TAsunder
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4783
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:21 pm
Location: Near East Side, Madison

Re: LOST

Postby boston_jeff » Thu May 14, 2009 11:36 am

Yeah Esau is also the smoke monster is the werd I heard. And he can inhabit other peeps obviously. My point was that Christian is not the loophole guy (Esau), but yes the loophole guy may have embodied Christian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau

So Lost flips the script seeing that Jacob kills Esau in the bible. Also, Ben is a Job-like character in the finale, as he has suffered for many years, losing everything (including his adopted child and his position as leader), yet still believing in Jacob (God to Job). Lost also flips this script, because Ben unlike Job, eventually loses it and stabs Jacob.

I'm thinking that Jacob is a good God-like figure and the shapeshifting smoky Esau is an evil Satan figure who convinces Ben and Locke to betray Jacob. There was also some black and white imagery throughout the series, including Walt's vision of Locke with one black and one white eye at some point (help me bookie). Yeah, and those are Jack's eyes in the promo for next year I think.

Ille Qui Nos Omnes Servabit means something like "he who will protect us all."
boston_jeff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2603
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:41 pm
Location: Near East

Re: LOST

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu May 14, 2009 11:47 am

I gotta say (because I almost never second guess this show accurately) that I guessed what was in the crate early on (although frankly, I thought the non-reveal reveal to Frank was seriously cheap and manipulative, but I digress.) But when the reveal was finally made toward the end, did anyone else find themselves thinking back to Locke's first re-appearance on the island? Because when I think back (and I may have to go back and re-watch) this whole "Locke isn't Locke" thing makes very little sense to me (not that such a complaint means much on a show like Lost necessarily, but anyway...) I can't think of a single line of dialogue prior to last night's finale that suggested Locke was anyone but Locke. Were there clues that I missed?

My biggest complaint (and I only complain from the position of a huge fan, mind you) is that I wish we'd seen Jacob in previous flashbacks. His sudden appearance in everyone's flashbacks strikes me as an unplanned, late addition, and not a particularly satisfying one. Had we seen this strange, unidentified man in previous episodes, I think the reveal that Jacob really did exist (something which I've always questioned) would have been that much more satisfying.
Prof. Wagstaff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 9016
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: LOST

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu May 14, 2009 11:53 am

boston_jeff wrote:So Lost flips the script seeing that Jacob kills Esau in the bible.

Jacob does not kill Esau, he merely steals his birthright. The story of Esau's eventual death at the hands of Jacob is apocryphal. In The Bible, the two reconcile.
Prof. Wagstaff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 9016
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: LOST

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 14, 2009 12:04 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: I can't think of a single line of dialogue prior to last night's finale that suggested Locke was anyone but Locke. Were there clues that I missed?


I think you are placing assumptions on how Esau's mojo would work when it doesn't mesh with what we've seen necessarily. We've seen dead people pretty much acting like the people they were before they died. Locke is no different.

Had we seen this strange, unidentified man in previous episodes, I think the reveal that Jacob really did exist (something which I've always questioned) would have been that much more satisfying.


I felt the same way. However, I'm willing to cut Lost some slack on their frequent use of retcons in this manner and other tired tv tropes because they do it in a way that indicates forethought and planning. It's additive and doesn't violate canon. It's the "nicer" kind of retcon. Plus, Lost has always had heavy elements of mystery, where you expect and actually want them to reveal more about past events in this manner.

Compare to, say, Battlestar Galactica which basically devolved into a steaming pile of horse crap after they repeatedly bulldozed major plotlines, wrote retcons that didn't make sense, and overall just made the story uninteresting and uninspired. Particularly humorous is that they never actually had a plan for what "The Plan" was (despite soon releasing a movie called "The Plan" which no doubt will violate even more canon).
TAsunder
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4783
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:21 pm
Location: Near East Side, Madison

Re: LOST

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu May 14, 2009 12:19 pm

TAsunder wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote: I can't think of a single line of dialogue prior to last night's finale that suggested Locke was anyone but Locke. Were there clues that I missed?


I think you are placing assumptions on how Esau's mojo would work when it doesn't mesh with what we've seen necessarily. We've seen dead people pretty much acting like the people they were before they died. Locke is no different.


I'm not sure I buy this. Christian doesn't act like Christian, for example -- he clearly has knowledge the living Christian would never have known. He's always acted like something in the form of Christian. Locke was just Locke.

Oh, and as for Esau being the smoke monster... if so, then his apparent surprise when Ben reveals what he saw when he confronted the smoke monster makes little sense (Locke seemed genuinely surprised to learn that Ben would do anything he asked, because the smoke monster told him to. If Locke/Esau was the monster, he'd surely already have known that.)
Prof. Wagstaff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 9016
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: LOST

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 14, 2009 12:24 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I'm not sure I buy this. Christian doesn't act like Christian, for example -- he clearly has knowledge the living Christian would never have known. He's always acted like something in the form of Christian.


He told Locke to say hi to his son and acknowledged Claire as his daughter. Those are pretty Christian things to do, I would say.
TAsunder
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4783
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:21 pm
Location: Near East Side, Madison

Re: LOST

Postby boston_jeff » Thu May 14, 2009 12:25 pm

Could be mock surprise. The smoke monster theory makes some sense to me, but I find it to be a bit hokey in general. And yes, I think Locke had been behaving increasingly odd over the last several episodes.
boston_jeff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2603
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:41 pm
Location: Near East

Re: LOST

Postby TAsunder » Thu May 14, 2009 12:27 pm

I'm uncertain about the smoke monster theory as well. Being that Jacob has Richard, my working assumption is that the smoke monster is Esau's servant.
TAsunder
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4783
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:21 pm
Location: Near East Side, Madison

Re: LOST

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu May 14, 2009 12:31 pm

TAsunder wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I'm not sure I buy this. Christian doesn't act like Christian, for example -- he clearly has knowledge the living Christian would never have known. He's always acted like something in the form of Christian.


He told Locke to say hi to his son and acknowledged Claire as his daughter. Those are pretty Christian things to do, I would say.


But he's also more than Christian.
I wasn't doubting that the smoke monster actually channels real people, just that those folks are somehow more than just who they were in life. Christian telling Locke to say hello to Jack always struck me more as a way of manipulating them then actually revealing anything about Christian.

boston_jeff -- I agree that Locke has been acting "odd", but then, he's been acting increasingly odd as the show has progressed in general. I was wondering if there were any specific hints in his dialogue since his apparent resurrection that could have tipped off eagle-eyed viewers that maybe we weren't dealing with Locke at all. I'm not nit-picking for plot holes here, I'm wondering if I missed something.
Prof. Wagstaff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 9016
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: LOST

Postby TheBookPolice » Thu May 14, 2009 12:35 pm

I think the only "tip" we might have are a pair of wingtips: Christian's shoes, as placed on Locke's feet pre-Ajira 316. He takes 'em off pretty conspicuously. I haven't worked out how this might be a clue, but it clearly meant something.

And when I referred to Jacob's house, I should have been more specific. I meant the one "in the shadow of the statue."
TheBookPolice
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 8404
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: The mystical Far East

Re: LOST

Postby boston_jeff » Thu May 14, 2009 12:40 pm

I mean duh, when you said house I assumed foot chamber with loom, not dusty old cabin.

Damn, we are truly the lingiest nerdlingers...
boston_jeff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2603
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:41 pm
Location: Near East

Re: LOST

Postby jjoyce » Thu May 14, 2009 1:24 pm

This is the thread that keeps on giving. I'm midway through season two on DVD and just started reading it today. Now, before any of y'all give anything important away, I'm going back to page 2.
jjoyce
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 12168
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:48 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: LOST

Postby boston_jeff » Thu May 14, 2009 1:55 pm

DVD series watching is so much more instantly gratifying. I am also midway through Season Two on DVD (even though I've watched the series since Season 1). Its a lot of fun to re-watch the old episodes.
boston_jeff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2603
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:41 pm
Location: Near East

PreviousNext

Return to TV

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar