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Former Alder Accuses Mayor Of Campaign Ethics Violations

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Postby Kanye Westsider » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:54 pm

pragmad wrote:
Kanye Westsider wrote:
pragmad wrote:
Mister_A_In_Madison wrote:
pragmad wrote:No, the whole pt is the city doesn't have an elections bosrd. The state's will hear the case. Now. should they have looked up Madison's rule before answering? Yes, but that'd not the mayor's fault. His campaign asked the people who should hsve known.
-Pragmad


This, again, speaks to a pattern of behavior... this time, ignoring (or being ignorant of) city ordinances.

If you will recall, the Mayor suggested plastering advertising on the recycling bins... within a few weeks of the City Council banning sidewalk advertising.

How does banning sifewalk advertising relate to Recycle Bins? You mean bins on the sidewalk? There are a lot of bins not on sidewalks. And I doubt he had much to do w/ checking the election legallity. He prob asked his staff to check and they did. Now, the state's board should have checked the city ordinance because they hear any case. My guess is he won't have to pay because clearly they were given wrong info.
-Pragmad


dumbest. post. ever.

so you're saying that if somebody asks the european union about generic traffic laws, then drives in madison according to those laws. should they get off when they get pulled over for driving the wrong side of the road just because they were given "wrong" information? (btw - the information they were given wasn't "wrong". they were just too dumb to check local law).

Why should the election board have checked to see what local law is? The STATE elections board deals with STATE law. If you want to know local law, go to the local level. If you want to be able to just go one place and get all kinds of law, both state and local, hire an attorney.

btw - the "i didn't know" excuse didn't work to well for the people wrapped up in the caucas scandal.

You are missing the pt, maybe on purpose. The STATE ELECTIONS BOARD WILL HEAR ANY CASE that gets filed LOCALLY. THEY WILL NEED TO KNOW THE CITY'S LAW. It'll be really absurd for the board to essentially reverse themselves. I don't know, maybe the board didn't understand the question. Maybe it was a new employee who didn't know cities had local laws re: elections.
-Pragmad


Are you a lawyer? Do you specialize in election law? Did you even take a basic civics class to earn about the different levels of government?

You seem like a slow reader, so I'll type slowly so you can follow along here.

Dave did not violate any STATE campaign laws. He violated CITY OF MADISON ethics laws. He will not be dragged before the STATE Elections/Ethics Board. He will be dragged before the MADISON ETHICS BOARD. This is a clear cut violation. He will be fined, censured or both. The only problem is hat this won't happen until the election is over. If he wins, then it send a signall for future campaigns that they can pull this stuff, and worry about the ramifactions after the election.

Bottom line, DAVE HAS COMMITTED AN ETHICS VIOLATION. Why are you defending somebody who has an ethics problem? Do ethics not matter to you? What are you going to say when Trolley Dave gets censured?

This is no different than Mark Green checking with the FEC about transfering his federal dollars to his 06 gov campaign, but not checking with the state elections board.
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Postby BobArctor » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:13 pm

Any stamp collectors on this thread?
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Postby pragmad » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:16 pm

Kanye Westsider wrote:
pragmad wrote:
Kanye Westsider wrote:
pragmad wrote:
Mister_A_In_Madison wrote:
pragmad wrote:No, the whole pt is the city doesn't have an elections bosrd. The state's will hear the case. Now. should they have looked up Madison's rule before answering? Yes, but that'd not the mayor's fault. His campaign asked the people who should hsve known.
-Pragmad


This, again, speaks to a pattern of behavior... this time, ignoring (or being ignorant of) city ordinances.

If you will recall, the Mayor suggested plastering advertising on the recycling bins... within a few weeks of the City Council banning sidewalk advertising.

How does banning sifewalk advertising relate to Recycle Bins? You mean bins on the sidewalk? There are a lot of bins not on sidewalks. And I doubt he had much to do w/ checking the election legallity. He prob asked his staff to check and they did. Now, the state's board should have checked the city ordinance because they hear any case. My guess is he won't have to pay because clearly they were given wrong info.
-Pragmad


dumbest. post. ever.

so you're saying that if somebody asks the european union about generic traffic laws, then drives in madison according to those laws. should they get off when they get pulled over for driving the wrong side of the road just because they were given "wrong" information? (btw - the information they were given wasn't "wrong". they were just too dumb to check local law).

Why should the election board have checked to see what local law is? The STATE elections board deals with STATE law. If you want to know local law, go to the local level. If you want to be able to just go one place and get all kinds of law, both state and local, hire an attorney.

btw - the "i didn't know" excuse didn't work to well for the people wrapped up in the caucas scandal.

You are missing the pt, maybe on purpose. The STATE ELECTIONS BOARD WILL HEAR ANY CASE that gets filed LOCALLY. THEY WILL NEED TO KNOW THE CITY'S LAW. It'll be really absurd for the board to essentially reverse themselves. I don't know, maybe the board didn't understand the question. Maybe it was a new employee who didn't know cities had local laws re: elections.
-Pragmad


Are you a lawyer? Do you specialize in election law? Did you even take a basic civics class to earn about the different levels of government?

You seem like a slow reader, so I'll type slowly so you can follow along here.

Dave did not violate any STATE campaign laws. He violated CITY OF MADISON ethics laws. He will not be dragged before the STATE Elections/Ethics Board. He will be dragged before the MADISON ETHICS BOARD. This is a clear cut violation. He will be fined, censured or both. The only problem is hat this won't happen until the election is over. If he wins, then it send a signall for future campaigns that they can pull this stuff, and worry about the ramifactions after the election.

Bottom line, DAVE HAS COMMITTED AN ETHICS VIOLATION. Why are you defending somebody who has an ethics problem? Do ethics not matter to you? What are you going to say when Trolley Dave gets censured?

This is no different than Mark Green checking with the FEC about transfering his federal dollars to his 06 gov campaign, but not checking with the state elections board.

Read this from ttp://www.wkowtv.com/News/index.php?ID=10383 "A violation would have to be reviewed by the state elections board, and a violation could mean a formal complaint filed against the Cieslewicz Campaign or even a fine."
And maybe I should support a candidate instead whio violated federal law. Read this: http://www.wkowtv.com/News/index.php?ID=10438
-Pragmad
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Postby Kanye Westsider » Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:41 pm

removed to kep spacing sane


If they are so sure about this federal violation why don't they make a bigegr deal about it? Why isn't Allen hauled before the US Postmaster or anything?

BTW - the first link you provided doesn't work, but everybody knows 27 has their head up their ass.

take a look at this from the WSJ:

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=126932

Mayor Dave Cieslewicz faces a post-election city Ethics Board hearing for a photo on a campaign flier in which he poses with Madison firefighters at a city fire station, city attorney Michael May said. The city's ethics code forbids using city employees in campaign literature. The penalty can range from a warning to a small fine.

[/b]
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Postby pragmad » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:12 pm

Kanye Westsider wrote:
removed to kep spacing sane


If they are so sure about this federal violation why don't they make a bigegr deal about it? Why isn't Allen hauled before the US Postmaster or anything?

BTW - the first link you provided doesn't work, but everybody knows 27 has their head up their ass.

take a look at this from the WSJ:

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=126932

Mayor Dave Cieslewicz faces a post-election city Ethics Board hearing for a photo on a campaign flier in which he poses with Madison firefighters at a city fire station, city attorney Michael May said. The city's ethics code forbids using city employees in campaign literature. The penalty can range from a warning to a small fine.

[/b]

Well, I was quoting what I heard on 27, which is an accuurate station. Maybe the State board decides if there's a violation, that doesn't mean they'd hear the case. As for Allen's possible violation, it was on what seems to be the most watched tv news and the most read daily.
-Pragmad
pragmad
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Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:57 pm

Postby Mister_A_In_Madison » Mon Apr 02, 2007 8:35 am

pragmad wrote:
Mister_A_In_Madison wrote:
pragmad wrote:No, the whole pt is the city doesn't have an elections bosrd. The state's will hear the case. Now. should they have looked up Madison's rule before answering? Yes, but that'd not the mayor's fault. His campaign asked the people who should hsve known.
-Pragmad


This, again, speaks to a pattern of behavior... this time, ignoring (or being ignorant of) city ordinances.

If you will recall, the Mayor suggested plastering advertising on the recycling bins... within a few weeks of the City Council banning sidewalk advertising.

How does banning sifewalk advertising relate to Recycle Bins? You mean bins on the sidewalk? There are a lot of bins not on sidewalks. And I doubt he had much to do w/ checking the election legallity. He prob asked his staff to check and they did. Now, the state's board should have checked the city ordinance because they hear any case. My guess is he won't have to pay because clearly they were given wrong info.
-Pragmad


Evidently, someone was not paying attention in class.

The Mayor suggested wrapping every recycling bin with advertising to net something like $62k in revenue (I may be off on the exact revenue estimate).

Just a few weeks prior, sidewalk advertising had been banned from city streets since it made (State Street, among others) unattractive.

Apparently, polluting the residential streets with ads was considered acceptable (since the Mayor rarely makes it out to those areas).
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Postby pragmad » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:37 am

Mister_A_In_Madison wrote:
pragmad wrote:
Mister_A_In_Madison wrote:
pragmad wrote:No, the whole pt is the city doesn't have an elections bosrd. The state's will hear the case. Now. should they have looked up Madison's rule before answering? Yes, but that'd not the mayor's fault. His campaign asked the people who should hsve known.
-Pragmad


This, again, speaks to a pattern of behavior... this time, ignoring (or being ignorant of) city ordinances.

If you will recall, the Mayor suggested plastering advertising on the recycling bins... within a few weeks of the City Council banning sidewalk advertising.

How does banning sifewalk advertising relate to Recycle Bins? You mean bins on the sidewalk? There are a lot of bins not on sidewalks. And I doubt he had much to do w/ checking the election legallity. He prob asked his staff to check and they did. Now, the state's board should have checked the city ordinance because they hear any case. My guess is he won't have to pay because clearly they were given wrong info.
-Pragmad


Evidently, someone was not paying attention in class.

The Mayor suggested wrapping every recycling bin with advertising to net something like $62k in revenue (I may be off on the exact revenue estimate).

Just a few weeks prior, sidewalk advertising had been banned from city streets since it made (State Street, among others) unattractive.

Apparently, polluting the residential streets with ads was considered acceptable (since the Mayor rarely makes it out to those areas).

Evidentally, you didn't listen to what I asked. Are all recycling bins on sidewalks? My building has a bin outside (not ona a sidewalk). thus the mayor's plan wou;dn't conflict w/ the sidewalk law.
-Pragmad
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Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:57 pm

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am

pragmad wrote:Are all recycling bins on sidewalks? My building has a bin outside (not ona a sidewalk). thus the mayor's plan wou;dn't conflict w/ the sidewalk law.

Does your building have private trash/recyclable pickup? Otherwise, city bins must be placed by the street prior to collection.
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Postby Mister_A_In_Madison » Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:54 am

pragmad wrote:Evidentally, you didn't listen to what I asked. Are all recycling bins on sidewalks? My building has a bin outside (not ona a sidewalk). thus the mayor's plan wou;dn't conflict w/ the sidewalk law.
-Pragmad


I apologize for misconstruing your question.

Bins need to be placed either on the terrace or the driveway apron, away from trees and other things (post, utilities, etc.) that might get in the way of the trucks emptying them.

So, the bins are easily viewable from the street and passers-by on the sidewalks.
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Postby lukpac » Thu May 03, 2007 9:58 am

Huh.

http://wkow.madison.com/News/index.php?ID=11255

Also today, the Ethics Board decided to dismiss the complaint against Mayor Dave Cieslewicz.

The complaint alleges the Cieslewicz campaign broke city election rules with flyer in which Cieslewicz posed with Madison firefighters.

City employees are not allowed to appear in political literature while on-duty.

Cieslewicz says the firefighters were off the clock.

Former Alder Dorothy Borchardt filed the complaint, but was not at today's Ethics Board meeting.

Due to her absence, the board dismissed her complaint.


Borchardt has a year to re-file.
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Postby Ed Breakfast » Thu May 03, 2007 3:17 pm

Why would she bother showing up? The election's over. The stunt failed.
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Postby MPMay » Thu May 03, 2007 11:46 pm

This is an example of the televison media having to truncate the report such that it is almost inexplicable. I'll avoid any comment on the larger issues this raises about media coverage, but I would note that the reports in the print versions of the WSJ and the CT were much better. For whatever reason, those reports were not posted on-line, while the Channel 27 summary was posted.

The Ethics Board Rules, which former Alder Borchardt was aware of prior to the meeting, state that the Board may dismiss, without prejudice, any complaint when the complainant fails to appear. This rule predates my service with the City, but I assume it is to emphasize the serious nature of an Ethics complaint. Ms. Borchardt apparently missed the rule and therefore did not appear at the hearing. The Board invoked its rule to dismiss the complaint without prejudice.

If she wishes to refile the complaint, she may do so.
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