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Vang Pao controversy continues

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Postby Igor » Tue May 08, 2007 12:36 am

So essentially this is coming down to a battle of:

"Name the school after a member of a minority ethnic group"

vs.

"Name the school after someone politically liberal"

Gee, I think I will sit this one out, until they figure out to just call it Tiger Woods elementary, in exchange for a funded golf team.
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Postby magic moose » Tue May 08, 2007 6:40 am

missmadtown wrote:Anyway, if I'm not mistaken, Thomas Jefferson was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, our country of citizenship. He has been revered as one of our great presidents. I assume the controversies to which you refer are his ambivalence toward slavery, and that he fathered children with one of his slaves. Still, the allegation that he "raped" Sally Heming (or anyone else), cannot be proven and is weakened by the fact that she was very well provided for by Jefferson, and she was at his side when he died.

Our culture has evolved (they say) in the 200 years since Jefferson became president and we no longer tolerate some things that were (unfortunately) commonplace then.



... we did NOT just go here. I might not touch this, but I can't resist.

With that kind of power differential (enslavement), consent did not matter. "Rape" is almost a certainty. Yes, our founding father, Thomas Jefferson is a rapist.
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Postby magic moose » Tue May 08, 2007 7:12 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

Regarding marriage between blacks and whites, Jefferson wrote that "[t]he amalgamation of whites with blacks produces a degradation to which no lover of his country, no lover of excellence in the human character, can innocently consent."[50]
_______________________

...once we start, we just can't stop on this guy...

How can we let our kids learn in such an environment of hostility? How come they don't grow up to be racist?
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Postby Henry Vilas » Tue May 08, 2007 8:07 am

The school board railroaded this decision by moving up their meeting by one week (scheduling it just as the MMSD and UW Spring Break was ending) and they did so without adequate notification. Yet when the public demands reconsideration, they respond with this.
[url=http://www.channel3000.com/news/13274145/detail.html]Several board members said they believe the time to speak up and object to the name has already come and gone.

Many wonder where the critics were when the school names were being publicly debated.[/url]
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Postby BobArctor » Tue May 08, 2007 8:31 am

Just keep this pot boiling until I sell a few more tee shirts.

Image
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Postby magic moose » Tue May 08, 2007 8:58 am

Where are the Thomas Jefferson Middle School - Rapist and Racist - tees?

Play both sides - make more money.
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Postby Mister_A_In_Madison » Tue May 08, 2007 12:17 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The school board railroaded this decision by moving up their meeting by one week (scheduling it just as the MMSD and UW Spring Break was ending) and they did so without adequate notification. Yet when the public demands reconsideration, they respond with this.
[url=http://www.channel3000.com/news/13274145/detail.html]Several board members said they believe the time to speak up and object to the name has already come and gone.

Many wonder where the critics were when the school names were being publicly debated.[/url]


This is the part I do not understand, especially since the Board recognizes that they need to work on the public image.
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Postby missmadtown » Wed May 09, 2007 7:53 am

magic moose wrote: With that kind of power differential (enslavement), consent did not matter. "Rape" is almost a certainty. Yes, our founding father, Thomas Jefferson is a rapist.


Should he be convicted as a rapist because it is "almost" certain? I was afraid to go here too, but it actually brings me to a point I have been thinking about for weeks.

Many Hmong display fierce loyalty towards Vang Pao, and refuse to consider that he was anything less than a saint. If anyone suggests otherwise there is almost a "kill the messenger" backlash.

We can identify with them to a point, because we have seen so many of our former heroes brought down by revelations and scandal of all types. In fact, in our lifetimes, we have gone from revering, even glorifying, our political heroes -our whole government- to mistrusting them. This was at the heart of the "generation gap" in the 60s, and much of our unhealed pain over the Viet Nam war has to do with our governments lies and cover-ups.

In 40 years we have gone from Camelot to the Bush Family Evil Empire and it really has been devastating, I think, to our national psyche.

We’ve had to face some very unpleasant facts about our political and military leaders. Disillusionment is hard to take, but Madison's Hmong community needs to face the truth about their leaders too. It’s part of what being an American is about.
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Postby magic moose » Wed May 09, 2007 12:20 pm

missmadtown wrote:Should he be convicted as a rapist because it is "almost" certain? I was afraid to go here too, but it actually brings me to a point I have been thinking about for weeks.


Thanks for the candor.

No, I'm not looking to secure a conviction. My point was: No one needs to convict anyone to assail another's reputation through allegation.

Just an allegation... akin to allegations of war crimes - for which I don't see Vang Pao has found a cell in The Hague for or even been subject of any kind of international censure. So in one sense, I am far more convinced that TJ is a rapist than Vang Pao is a war criminal.

Yet the recall of TJ is not imminent - he's just an important part of our history. (whether we are disillusioned or not, or revere him too fiercely to tarnish his legacy)
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Postby missmadtown » Wed May 09, 2007 12:45 pm

magic moose wrote: My point was: No one needs to convict anyone to assail another's reputation through allegation.


Yes, just take a look at what Shwaw Vang and friends have done to Professors McCoy and Kaplan

magic moose wrote:So in one sense, I am far more convinced that TJ is a rapist than Vang Pao is a war criminal.


There is no excuse for ignorance of Vang Pao's involvement in the drug trade, war crimes, polygamy (taking a 15 year old "bride" from a rival clan for political gain is not much different than what TJ did, is it?), et al. Have you read this article, and followed the links? It is a good place to start:
http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/artic ... ticle=6542
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Postby BobArctor » Wed May 09, 2007 1:33 pm

magic moose wrote:Where are the Thomas Jefferson Middle School - Rapist and Racist - tees?

Play both sides - make more money.


Wait a few months, I'm doing those in snow globes.
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Postby Henry Vilas » Wed May 09, 2007 2:31 pm

Let me pour a little fuel on the fire. James Madison, the namesake of our fair city and of our westernmost public high school, was also a slaveowner.
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Postby missmadtown » Wed May 09, 2007 3:21 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Let me pour a little fuel on the fire. James Madison, the namesake of our fair city and of our westernmost public high school, was also a slaveowner.


Let's just dump all slaveowner names for existing schools, and name schools after worthy people who have made an impact in Madison. If we are going to continue honoring ethnic groups the Italians have been waiting a lonnng time. I vote for Alfred Colucci High School to replace James Madison Memorial.
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Postby Stu Levitan » Wed May 09, 2007 4:16 pm

Don't forget that Phillip Falk, former school superintendent and namesake of an elementary school, was a member of Junior Honorary Society of Ku Klux Klan on UW Campus -- as were two men with rooms in the Memorial Union named in their honor, Frederick March and Porter Butts. Oh, yeah -- Walter Frautschi, too.

Interesting times, those twenties.
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School board has a LOT to answer for

Postby missmadtown » Wed May 09, 2007 4:24 pm

Very interesting article from the Cap Times last December. Here are some excerpts:

What's In A Name?
For Madison Schools Past And Present, The Label Matters


What, really, is in a name? And what are local folks thinking about when it comes to naming Madison's newest elementary school, which will break ground in the spring following last month's successful referendum?

"While there isn't a firm timetable I'm sure we'll be starting the process of naming the new school in the first quarter of the new year," Ken Syke, spokesman for the Madison school district, said. (STARTING the process, eh)

The School Board has established a detailed policy for naming schools, he said. (snip) There have been guidelines in place for naming schools in Madison for over a century. . (like WHAT?)

Former Mayor Paul Soglin wrote in an e-mail, "My only thought is that it be named after a person who has had a positive impact on our community: that could be a local person like Rev. James C. Wright or it could be a national figure who may have done something to change all of our lives for the better, for example in the environment, labor issues or the arts."

School Board President Johnny Winston Jr. said he thought there would be many worthwhile suggestions.
"The community voted to support it, the community should name it," he said.


http://www.madison.com/archives/read.ph ... 110729.php
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