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Why I support tribe's plan, and not a reactionary casino ban

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

What alternative proposals for income have you offered for the tribe?

Poll ended at Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:02 pm

I'll think of something later
3
21%
I don't care about their needs
4
29%
I've proposed a $10 billion reparations subsidy that the county is about to vote on
3
21%
This isn't about them, this is about me
4
29%
 
Total votes : 14

Postby Suoiragerg » Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:06 am

You had me daisy until you used "methinks".

Now, that behooves me to bequest my vote in favor of aforementioned casino and alas against thou.
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Postby Harbinger » Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:09 am

Daisy wrote:I support affirmative action, myself. Whole-heartedly. Which is why I wouldn't make it analogous to gambling. Fleecing person A in order to help person B - the approach whites once took, and which got us into this mess in the first place - isn't as noble an approach as affirmative action, scholarship funds, etc., methinks.


Scholarships and affirmative action haven't cured the wealth inequality yet, and may not do so for another hundred years. And they are completely at the whim of the majority, who can (and have) cut their funding and their effectiveness. So there is obvious bennefit for another source of financial resources, especially if it can be perpetuated and run by the minorities themselves without counting on liberal good will. So it's too bad the only one shown to have worked for Indians is so offensive to so many of the majority.
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Postby jjoyce » Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:16 am

Harbinger wrote:Scholarships and affirmative action haven't cured the wealth inequality yet, and may not do so for another hundred years.


"Cure" the "Wealth inequality?" That might just be the most obvious example of blubbermouthing I've seen this week. But it's only Tuesday.

You're still not addressing the point, which is that gambling is a dishonest way of achieving "wealth equality," if it ever really will. Gambling is purely about luring in suckers with flashing lights and returning a nickel for every dollar... that's it. There are countless ways of making big profits on tribal lands and casino gambling is simply the easiest (not to mention sleaziest).

If the ends justify the means, then I guess you're cool with that. I, on the other hand, am not cool with it and proudly voted no an hour ago.
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Postby Smartypants » Tue Feb 17, 2004 11:29 am

wee beastie wrote:
Smartypants wrote: You ought to be embarrassed for this stupid shit. So when I vote "no" tomorrow I'm a racist huh? I keep reading this sort of argument about the casino and it blows my mind.

I see. Do you specialize in gross over-simplifications like that as a matter of vocation or inclination?


Inclination.

wee beastie wrote:
Smartypants wrote: Well, wee beastie, if that's the way you see it, it sure isn't worth the 1's and 0's on this bulletin board to even deal with your opinion. Doesn't matter though because with arguments like that you're more likely to tip the scales to the "no" side anyway. Dipshit.
Damn, I must have hit a nerve. Do you always get this violently angry when someone suggests that your view may be colored (forgive the pun) by race issues?


First, calling you a dipshit for calling me a racist for my personal opinion about having a casino in my neighborhood does not indicate violence or anger. It indicates frustration with someone who is willing to play the race baiting game against people he/she knows absolutely nothing about. Yes, you did hit a nerve, I'll agree there. You belittle actual racist concerns by overgeneralizing this to people who don't agree with you about a gambling casino.

wee beastie wrote:Hell, I have race issues. I'd be the first one to admit it. In fact, I was driving with this good friend of mine on New Years Eve, the kind of fellow you would never suspect having race issues, and we came upon a car with a black man leaning over the side. His first comment was about how this was a drug deal. As we got closer it became apparent that the guy was filling up his car with gas. His car had ran out of gas. I would say likewise about your arguments.


First, nice story but what comment did I make that was racist? I have just expressed my opinion that I'm voting (now, have voted), NO. Don't I have a right to that opinion? Is it possible that I have made my choice on other factors than race? Let me ask you this Wee, if I didn't vote for Al Sharpton today, does that mean I'm a racist too?

wee beastie wrote:
Smartypants wrote:Let me pose this to you. How would you vote if the casino wasn't going to be opened by the Ho-Chunk but instead by some business developers? Are you advocating voting yes purely because it will be profitable to the Ho-Chunk?

Yep. I consider it the poor man's version of reparations


Wha? Reparations that prey on a certain slice of our community? It is a FACT that some people will develop an addiction to gambling and it is a FACT that some people will commit crimes to support that addiction. Now, some of those folks might be minorities, so you must be a racist if you don't care about those folks who might be harmed by the casino...:roll: see how easy it is to throw that around?

I personally am not interested in exploiting this so I've exercised my right to vote. Look, I'm fine with your support of a casino for whatever reason you choose. I will not accuse you of being a racist or some other derogatory term because you don't agree with me (BTW, I didn't call you a dipshit because you support the casino, that was because of your description of anyone voting no as a racist).

If the "yes" votes outnumber the "no" votes, well then I'll live with the consequences because I can respect other people's opinions. I can't respect your overbroad description of someone who has decided to vote "no" a racist. Talk about oversimplification.
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Postby Harbinger » Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:33 pm

jjoyce wrote:
Harbinger wrote:Scholarships and affirmative action haven't cured the wealth inequality yet, and may not do so for another hundred years.


There are countless ways of making big profits on tribal lands


It's clear that jjoyce, with his junior-business degree, thinks that the tribe has many options for raking in the bucks (and I wonder how much of your argument is dependent on that notion). But do you really expect us to take your word for it and start responding to these unmentioned alternatives as if you've layed out the business plans, analyzed the market, and arranged the financing? You have no idea, Mr. JJ Trump. And your premise is that this tribe, and all the others using casino income, are fools -- that with their own legal and business experts, they can't see opportunities that you can perfect in your spare time. What makes sense is this is the opportunity they have, given the shity land and limited autonomy we've allowed them

You're still not addressing the point, which is that gambling is a dishonest way of achieving "wealth equality," ...


Please, it's entertainment at best, and equal to the lottery but better than bars at worst. And affirmative action has it's own dishonesty to the equally qualified low-income white person who is rejected for a wealthy black person. Districting voter rights laws have resulted in dishonest gerrymandering. And reparations would inevitably be taken from tax dollars in a less than ideal manner. Every social policy has some dishonesty. That's why most of us view them in terms of overall effect. The overall effect of gambling is that over 90% of the users would use it as entertainment, and more of the funds would go to social causes than the bars you support. Most likely you look at most social policy in terms of overall effect (or less in the case of your support of bars) but reserve a "pure unadulterated good" test for casinos.

Gambling is purely about luring in suckers with flashing lights and returning a nickel for every dollar... that's it.


First, it's around 80 cents returned on the dollar. And you say that so smug as you patronize bars that lure suckers with chemical addition and don't even return that nickel you sneer at. You think your poop don't stink?
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Postby swifty » Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:21 pm

lunatic fringe wrote: The Harley Davidson store could use some action and anyone who chings it big might be happy enough to spend.


Yeah, that's a great idea. It's pretty much the same moronic clientele that hangs out in casinos and rides crap cans. The pseudo-patriot lemmings can get fleeced twice in one stop.
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Postby Daisy » Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:40 pm

Suoiragerg wrote:You had me daisy until you used "methinks".
Sorry. Slipped out. :D
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Postby Donald » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:19 pm

Harbinger wrote:...First, it's around 80 cents returned on the dollar....


This is highly misleading. The machine on average kicks back 80 cents per dollar put in. On every $1 play, you can expect to lose 20 cents on average. On average, five plays and you lose a dollar. It takes about 2 seconds or less per play, or 10 seconds to lose one dollar (playing a dollar per play), $6.00 per minute, $360/hour. Many people play more than a dollar per play. It adds up to a paycheck lost pretty fast.
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Postby eriedasch » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:55 pm

Donald wrote:
Harbinger wrote:...First, it's around 80 cents returned on the dollar....


This is highly misleading. The machine on average kicks back 80 cents per dollar put in. On every $1 play, you can expect to lose 20 cents on average. On average, five plays and you lose a dollar. It takes about 2 seconds or less per play, or 10 seconds to lose one dollar (playing a dollar per play), $6.00 per minute, $360/hour. Many people play more than a dollar per play. It adds up to a paycheck lost pretty fast.

I agree. And what about when some is bragging about how much they "won". Yeah, I won $80 on a slot at ho chunk! And how much did you spend before your winnings and after... And how much did you lose the last time you went? Unless you can count cards the odds are always against you at a casino.
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