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Why I support tribe's plan, and not a reactionary casino ban

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

What alternative proposals for income have you offered for the tribe?

Poll ended at Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:02 pm

I'll think of something later
3
21%
I don't care about their needs
4
29%
I've proposed a $10 billion reparations subsidy that the county is about to vote on
3
21%
This isn't about them, this is about me
4
29%
 
Total votes : 14

Postby jjoyce » Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:31 pm

That's a nice theory which might help your street cred with the vegans, but as someone who was taught how to hip check and put a wrister in the top shelf by a kid named Makepeace, let me point out that gambling will no more aid in cultural integration as it will providing actual revenue for this community.

I actually prefer to find Native Americans in my school district's classrooms, on the city council, in boardrooms, on the hockey rink and at the Overture Center. Can you explain how this casino is going to get us to that point?
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Postby Jattpw » Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:36 pm

Now I remember where I have seen the questions in this poll before!

Are these the same questions the sleazy spin doctors employed by the tribe used in their "opinion polling" that was actually an unmitigated campaign activity fraudulantly fronting itself as an nonpartisan opinion poll. Nice to see your buy in is complete.

:wink:
Last edited by Jattpw on Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:39 pm

While the Wisconsin State Journal opposes the DeJope Casino, it mentions some disconcerting facts if the referendum fails. (They buried this part on page 5 of the local section - last Sunday's paper.)

"Without a new stream of money, county union workers won't renegotiate salary contracts this year. Budget cuts would become more likely."

"If the tribe doesn't have a fourth site by June, 2006, the tribe can requestion renegotiations of its payment to the state..."

"Madison City Council could still authorize a casino, but payments to the city and possible the county could be renegotiated."

Even opponents might like the last one, since the renegotiation could boost payments to what the antis think is the true social cost of a Madison casino.
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Postby wee beastie » Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:44 pm

jjoyce wrote:I actually prefer to find Native Americans in my school district's classrooms, on the city council, in boardrooms, on the hockey rink and at the Overture Center. Can you explain how this casino is going to get us to that point?


Well see, it works this way.
Casino makes money.
Tribe provides annual payments to each tribe member directly from casino proceeds.
Tribal member uses money to go to college, at say, Madison, where jjoyce may actually see them.
That's where I met my Native American friends.
Hell, I lived with a full-blood Navaho grad student for two years.

But, I'll tell you another story, one that had a direct impact on me.
I once share a bus bench with a Wisconsin Indian fellow. We got to talking for a good bit. I told him what I was doing. And he remarked about how he wanted to go to college, but couldn't afford it. He had tried several times. He really wanted to get off the res and study.
He asked me if I could help him ... not monetarily. But if I could help him find financial aid sources he could use.
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Postby Smartypants » Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:55 pm

wee beastie wrote:
arielbria wrote:why did it take a big, scary casino threatening our lovely, ââ?¬Å?liberalââ?¬? Madison existence to make any of us even give a second thought to the plight of American Indians?


I think you struck at the heart of the matter.
I have had the same thought for several years now, long before the casino issue.

The long and short of it is that the great majority of the anti-casino crowd, never has, doesn't now, and never will, give a flying hoot about Native Americans.
Not a goddamn tinker's damn.

Stuck away on their little reservations, those redskins are Out-of-Sight, Out-of Mind.
That's the way we like our minorities.
When they actually try to get anywhere near a large concentration of white peple, (aka DeJope) by God's Teeth, they must be stopped!
Use whatever rationalization you must, but for the love of Christ, STOP THEM!
Now black and Hispanic people ... we'll they're a problem.
We didn't act quickly enough to set up reservations for them, and now they're all over the damn place. Can't buy an Eskimo Pie without one handing you the change.


What is this? Some lame ass attempt at a guilt trip? We can solve all the fiscal problems of the Native American residents among us if we just allow more gambling? You ought to be embarrassed for this stupid shit. So when I vote "no" tomorrow I'm a racist huh? I keep reading this sort of argument about the casino and it blows my mind.

Well, wee beastie, if that's the way you see it, it sure isn't worth the 1's and 0's on this bulletin board to even deal with your opinion. Doesn't matter though because with arguments like that you're more likely to tip the scales to the "no" side anyway. Dipshit.

Why don't you do something else to actually fight racism than to paint everybody on this forum who disagrees with you a racist because they're going to vote NO on county-wide referendum.

Point is, I don't like gambling, I'll make the NIMBY argument and I don't really give a shit what you think about it or me. I'd rather pay $20 more in property taxes than have a casino less than a two miles from my house. I'd rather pay an additional .5% in sales tax, etc.

Let me pose this to you. How would you vote if the casino wasn't going to be opened by the Ho-Chunk but instead by some business developers? Are you advocating voting yes purely because it will be profitable to the Ho-Chunk? This is just bizarre.
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Postby PopeOnFire » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:13 pm

Good points Daisy. I understand Beasties point of view. I understand those who oppose the casino too. Me? I probably won't make up my mind until I hit the voting booth tomorrow. I suspect that there are a lot of others out there who share my indecision. If I were voting right this very second...I'd vote in favor. Of course, this might change before tomorrow.





Daisy wrote:I love this moral-absolutism shit. If one is a progressive who disagrees with you on this issue - and finds it more about current-day local policy than about genocide - one is a "reactionary."

This sort of self-righteousness is why, to quote a friend, Progressive Dane should really rename itself Progressive East Isthmus. As long as you take such a self-righteous approach towards the electorate ("You're either with us, or you're with the white terrorists"), you're not going to get much traction with those voters who may have the gall to disagree with you from time to time.

I may disagree with people like beastie who see this as an issue of remedy for past wrongs, but I don't think he's a "reactionary" or whatever because of it. I respect his intentions and his sincerity. Apparently that kind of thing doesn't flow both ways.
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Postby wee beastie » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:14 pm

Smartypants wrote:What is this? Some lame ass attempt at a guilt trip? We can solve all the fiscal problems of the Native American residents among us if we just allow more gambling?

Works for me.

Smartypants wrote: You ought to be embarrassed for this stupid shit. So when I vote "no" tomorrow I'm a racist huh? I keep reading this sort of argument about the casino and it blows my mind.

I see. Do you specialize in gross over-simplifications like that as a matter of vocation or inclination?
Smartypants wrote: Well, wee beastie, if that's the way you see it, it sure isn't worth the 1's and 0's on this bulletin board to even deal with your opinion. Doesn't matter though because with arguments like that you're more likely to tip the scales to the "no" side anyway. Dipshit.
Damn, I must have hit a nerve. Do you always get this violently angry when someone suggests that your view may be colored (forgive the pun) by race issues? Hell, I have race issues. I'd be the first one to admit it. In fact, I was driving with this good friend of mine on New Years Eve, the kind of fellow you would never suspect having race issues, and we came upon a car with a black man leaning over the side. His first comment was about how this was a drug deal. As we got closer it became apparent that the guy was filling up his car with gas. His car had ran out of gas. I would say likewise about your arguments.

Smartypants wrote:I'd rather pay $20 more in property taxes than have a casino less than a two miles from my house. I'd rather pay an additional .5% in sales tax, etc.
I'll assume you have already contacvted your alder, mayor, and state legislators on this.

Smartypants wrote:Let me pose this to you. How would you vote if the casino wasn't going to be opened by the Ho-Chunk but instead by some business developers? Are you advocating voting yes purely because it will be profitable to the Ho-Chunk?

Yep. I consider it the poor man's version of reparations
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Postby Jattpw » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:50 pm

What is interesting is weeeeee beastie is he seems like the kind of person who would be involved in a local political campaign. But in this case there is no campaign that wants him so he sits and posts here 24/7.

The out of town casino spin machine doesn't really care what the locals think or how this will affect them as long as they get the vote. Other than to hold some up as human posters they don't have much use for any of us at this point. Doesn't this tell you something about how relations will be with the 47 acre development this referendum is really about?

What about environmental issues? Sorrounding traffic issues? School system issues? Whether a seperate nation or not, this development is going to be part of Madison. Water flows through it. Traffic drives to, through, and around it. Local schools still serve it and will have the 47 acres removed from their tax rolls. (future referendum coming to make this up?)

My experience has told me that people often act after election with the same dignity and integrity as they did in the election. There are going to be many continuing issues surounding the casino. If the casino passes, I really hope there is greater respect from both sides on how all these other issues are worked out.
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Postby jjoyce » Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:54 pm

wee beastie wrote:And he remarked about how he wanted to go to college, but couldn't afford it. He had tried several times.


A lot of deserving people want to go to college but can't afford it.

My childhood friends who were Native Americans attended various colleges (U of M, Mankato State, Carleton) using the same opportunities at my disposal: scholarships, loans, jobs and parental help. Casinos weren't around in the '80s.

Liberals shouldering guilt in segregated Madison can't make the world's problems go away. But there are several ways of paying for college that don't involve hoodwinking hicks out of their paychecks.
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Postby hotshot » Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:55 pm

jjoyce wrote: I actually prefer to find Native Americans in my school district's classrooms, on the city council, in boardrooms, on the hockey rink and at the Overture Center. Can you explain how this casino is going to get us to that point?


Let's see what was said on January 30th by an Indian lawyer, Michelle Greendeer: "The Ho-Chunk are investing whatever it takes to lower the dropout rate and get kids from high school into college or trade schools ... I'm a product of Indian gaming, and if I hadn't had the funds to succeed I don't know where I'd be right now."

Michelle's direct experience with casino funds and college is better than all your best guesses and preferences JJ. What you are doing by voting no, JJ, is the surest thing that you can do this week to sabatoge this dream, that you and the tribe share, of "Native Americans in my school district's classrooms, on the city council, in boardrooms" and help make sure the funds won't be there to make it come true.

jjoyce wrote:
Liberals shouldering guilt in segregated Madison can't make the world's problems go away. But there are several ways of paying for college that don't involve hoodwinking hicks out of their paychecks.


Either way of helping the educational gap is based on "guilt" or, as I'd call it, the obligation of people with undeserved privileges to act when they can to help set inequalities right. Only you just think doing it in a way you don't like (casino money) is stupid, and doing it in a way you do like (probably federal grants that Bush is about to propose, right?) is nice, but not necessary. I think it's necessary to undo the education and wealth gap between whites and minorities sooner rather than later, and I think the Indians deciding the way in which it's done is best. And I think your problem with gambling, in the face of all the gambling and other sin businesses like booze, is near hysteric and laughably absolutist. The tribe can have a casino and know how it will pay for scholarships, or it can wait on you to slowly leak out all these supposed better plans you have for them, and then your plans for convincing Dane County to pass them when some other group can rise up and say "I like the idea, but that isn't the way either" and then you have more decades just like the last with good talk and no change. I agree that the tribe shouldn't rely on liberal guilt, it's so fickle and conditional. It's time to allow the tribe the resources (the same type of resource the state uses and other businesses use) to take care of themselves. And then get over it.
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Postby Daisy » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:50 am

hotshot wrote:the obligation of people with undeserved privileges
Please explain the "undeserved privileges" of someone who makes precious little money and was molested by a relative and beaten senseless throughout childhood, but commited the crime of being born white.

I know someone like that. And I can guaran-fuckin-tee you that person would trade away quite a few of their supposed priviledges to not have had their uncle's dick in their ass at age 8.

But if your shallow, race-obsessed self saw that person on the street, your brain would automatically serve up the message "there goes privilege."

Your problem is that you see EVERYTHING - injustice, struggle, inequity - strictly through the prism of race. Hey, it's the easiest, most visible way to carve up human beings into tidy little groups, isn't it? There goes a good one...there goes a bad one...

It must suck for you to have to avoid the reality that human beings are a little more complex than skin color. If everything just fit neatly into your reductionist worldview, we could just read a few books about what an asshole Columbus was and have it all figured out.
hotshot wrote:hysteric and laughably absolutist
Yes, you are.
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$16k per capita

Postby wendigo » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:51 am

Ok, I don't recall the source; it must have been either one of the newspapers or on TV; it was definitely a journalistic source, not a party of either side. Anyway, the report was that the tribal members receive $16,000 per capita rather than the $8k mentioned above. Sorry I don't have a better source.

It just seems so obvious to me that society in general will not benefit by huge amounts of money being converted to the tribal peoples. I agree, I would rather GIVE them money, or support a huge restaurant or theme park or something. It doesn't seem an honorable way for them to make money or for us to spend it. And I'm not talking MORALS either; I grew up playing poker as a kid at home, I think its fun. But its fun losing $40 once every decade outside the home, not $300 every Friday and Saturday, which I'm sure addicts can do easily. No one needs the social costs of that grief.

I understand the thrill, I understand the fun of the next card. Who needs that temptation? Couldn't we be spending that money on preserving some wetlands instead?
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$16K per capita NOW not with new casino

Postby wendigo » Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:55 am

My prior post was not clear, the $16 k per capita that tribal members receive was NOW, under the current gaming, without a new casino. I'm fairly certain that that amount is more than many Madison or county families receive now. $64k total for a family of 4. Again, I apologize for the lack of source. I think it was a newspaper article about 3 weeks ago, but not certain.
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Postby Harbinger » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:43 am

Daisy wrote:
hotshot wrote:the obligation of people with undeserved privileges
Please explain the "undeserved privileges" of someone who makes precious little money and was molested by a relative and beaten senseless throughout childhood, but commited the crime of being born white.


Daisy, I recommend you read a couple books on the topic of white privilege. You could rent "the color of fear." There are other people than you who were beaten and molested as children, but on top of that abuse, their great-grandfather was a slave, grandfather was lynched, mother lived on welfare and father lived in prison, they were called spic as a child, they were born on a poor reservation, their landlords tell them the apartment was already rented, they get rejected for a job simply because their last name is Gonzalez, ... etc. How can you be so smug about the meaninglessness of race and explain the enormous wealth gap between whites and blacks or whites and natives? Is that gap voluntary, or the present effects of historic racism? No, I know, it's not your fault and it's unfair you to have to do anything about it. Every white person who is against affirmative action trots out their own hard-luck stories. But the remedies for child abuse are not the same remedies needed for undoing the socioeconomic disadvantages that persists for blacks and natives. I hope you are being extreme, I don't believe you really mean what you say here. I think you are incensed by personalities and terms used in this discussion. But you worked for Dave's campaign and other people who support affirmative action. Can it really be that you have absolutely no support for policies that help undo race-based-inequality unless the people who actually caused the inequality are still all alive and in charge? Your culture can make a treaty and break it, and as long as they can resist honoring it until the first generation dies no future generation has to honor it either? If you believe that, then few racist atrocisties would ever be remedied in even the smallest way, because racist rapists, murders and enslavers don't tend to have a change of heart, and it is their ancestors who start feeling some guilt at what their parents stole for them from the poor and destroyed culture next door. I know it seems like an unfair hardship to you, but otherwise most of the hardship is placed on the disadvantaged group. And if it means a group that was a victim of racism catches up in three decades instead of thirty, isn't it worth a little effort?
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Postby Daisy » Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:58 am

Harbinger wrote:How can you be so smug about the meaninglessness of race
I don't think race is "meaningless" - clearly redlining, profiling etc, make plain that it isn't. I just don't think it's the ONLY context within which an issue can be legitimately viewed, and it tends to be used to short-circuit discussions about (other) pros and cons of an issue.
Harbinger wrote:explain the enormous wealth gap between whites and blacks or whites and natives? Is that gap voluntary, or the present effects of historic racism?
The latter, obviously. Which is why I'm all too happy to have my taxdollars go to fund scholarships, better schools in underserved communities, and any number of other approaches that I feel are more productive than gambling.
Harbinger wrote:I hope you are being extreme, I don't believe you really mean what you say here. I think you are incensed by personalities and terms used in this discussion.
Yeah, there's some of that...:D
Harbinger wrote:But you worked for Dave's campaign and other people who support affirmative action. Can it really be that you have absolutely no support for policies that help undo race-based-inequality unless the people who actually caused the inequality are still all alive and in charge?
I support affirmative action, myself. Whole-heartedly. Which is why I wouldn't make it analogous to gambling. Fleecing person A in order to help person B - the approach whites once took, and which got us into this mess in the first place - isn't as noble an approach as affirmative action, scholarship funds, etc., methinks.
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