MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Sunday, March 1, 2015 |  Madison, WI: 20.0° F  Fair
Collapse Photo Bar

Isthmus on Edgewater

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:44 am

Board of Estimates deals blow to Edgewater redevelopment plans

In a setback but far from a final blow, Madison's finance committee endorsed $3.3 million rather than a previously approved $16 million in city assistance for the $98 million Edgewater hotel project.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 20555
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:29 am

Henry Vilas wrote: How is the "executive veto" undemocratic ...judical decisions also undemocratic

There are many undemocratic checks against against democray in governments we call "democratic." Both of the two you mention can be examples.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby snoqueen » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:30 am

Please note that the Board of Estimates, generally a sober and non-politicized body, bases its judgments on fiscal, not design, considerations.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 12071
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:36 am

Stu Levitan wrote: The Landmarks Commissioners were appointed by Mayor Cieslewicz and confirmed by the Common Council. We exercised our jurisdiction -- in public, after many public meetings and hearings -- pursuant to an ordinance adopted by the Council and signed by the mayor. How was that an "undemocratic" mechanism?


The Landmarks Commission is a dramatic example of an undemocratic mechanism. That's the main purpose of a lot of commissions - to act a bulwark against popular passions of the moment. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think the Landmarks Commission is a bad idea, I've just disagreed with one detail of their mandate.

My point is that the Edgewater controversy really ought to be decided democratically. The Landmarks Commission has already weighed-in (and I would say they've had too much influence when you break it down.) I think the Edgewater controversy is mostly a subjective matter, the majority should be respected.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:37 am

Huckleby wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote: How is the "executive veto" undemocratic ...judical decisions also undemocratic

There are many undemocratic checks against against democray in governments we call "democratic." Both of the two you mention can be examples.

The Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution is another example.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 20555
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:47 am

snoqueen wrote:Please note that the Board of Estimates, generally a sober and non-politicized body, bases its judgments on fiscal, not design, considerations.


sober? I demand a sobriety test!

well, this is one large point in your favor. But the TIF controversy seems to be a philisophical arguement. It's like the debate of whether tax cuts lower the deficeit, there really is no definitive right or wrong answers because of the many factors involved. Experts just divide into camps. Perhaps your Board of Estimates has a majority of TIF skeptics.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:50 am

Henry Vilas wrote: The Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution is another example.
Sure, sometimes. The Bill of Rights could also act as a check against Commissions Gone Wild or other excesses of government officials.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Bwis53 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:10 am

Huck, are you invested or associated with Edgewater in any way?
Bwis53
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6520
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:39 pm
Location: Bay Creek

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:42 am

their bar/dining room area is a great place to sit on a winter afternoon when the lake is frozen over. Looks like the moon out there.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby green union terrace chair » Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:40 pm

We don't live in a democracy, we live in a constitutional republic. We vote for people, they appoint others to committees and commissions and courts and things.

And some elected officials have more powers than others. So they can do things like exercise a veto. And if enough of the lesser officials band together they can overturn that veto.

It's a really great system and far better than pure democracy would be.
green union terrace chair
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2930
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:33 pm
Location: Memorial Union

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:58 pm

I don't disagree with anything you say, green. But you have to break it down further. Every issue is different.

You have to balance the will of the people, expressed best through the elected council, with the need for undemocratic institutions in particular situations. (I happen to think that the Landmarks Commission has too much power, but that is water-over-the dam as pertains to this issue.) The Edgewater issue lends itself well to a democratic resolution, its a controversy that has grown in interest, has broad impact, and that the ordinary person has as much wisdom for as the experts.

Power to the people!
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby gargantua » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:07 pm

Bwis53 wrote:Huck, are you invested or associated with Edgewater in any way?


Since I didn't see a yes or no, looks like your question was deflected.
gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4539
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby other i » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:36 am

If we wanted the ultimate democratic test of this issue, and put it to a referendum, I think the results would be rather interesting. I don't advocate that we do that. But the back-and-forth on which body is more democratic certainly needs to be grounded in the reality that a referendum for ANY TIF funding of the Edgewater project would probably fail.
other i
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:15 pm

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Ducatista » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:13 am

gargantua wrote:Since I didn't see a yes or no, looks like your question was deflected.

That's lame. So was the question, sorry Bwis.

I'm as disgusted as Huckleby by Mohs and the vocal cadre of height averse (love that my personal proportions would make their blood run cold). Maybe more so, since this is my neighborhood people are tut-tutting about. And I've gotten just as wrapped up as Huckleby in forum discussions that frustrate me, though I don't have the time or appetite to duke it out on this one.

So to me, the "you must be an insider" line reads like crappy playground etiquette.
Ducatista
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4392
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:31 pm
Location: 53703

Re: Isthmus on Edgewater

Postby Huckleby » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:15 am

gargantua wrote:
Bwis53 wrote:Huck, are you invested or associated with Edgewater in any way?


Since I didn't see a yes or no, looks like your question was deflected.

Hee hee hee
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7602
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

PreviousNext

Return to Local Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar