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The new state budget and abortion

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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:02 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:So Ned, should medical students be taught a procedure that can save a woman's life? A simple yes or no will do.

Bumped for an answer. Speak up, Ned.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby jman111 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:03 pm

I absolutely disagree. It may have put a portion of the evidence in question, but certainly not "everything", as you assert. Yes, there are ulterior motives (along with poor methodology, inconsistent interpretations, etc) identified in scientific research. The existence of those motives rightfully initiates a reexamination of the results derived from the work of those involved. Often, the data are found to be reliable despite the motivation by some to skew interpretation.

Again, identifying questionable data or methods used in a very small (dare I say negligible) fraction of the support for a theory by no means invalidates the overwhelming evidence based on peer-reviewed conclusions drawn from consistent data produced by reliable methods.

On that, I bid you Good Day. I've got a date with a little white ball and some holes in the ground. I'd love to revisit the topic in the future.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:09 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:It clearly put everthing into question. Don't you agree?

Nope.
Ned Flanders wrote:And it wasn't just "one location". The plot involved several universities in the United States as well.

There was no plot.
I know you won't bother to read or understand this, but that's because you're the one who treats their beliefs as dogma, not the scientific community.

In fact, nothing in the stolen material undermines the scientific consensus that climate change is happening and that humans are to blame. “Heat-trapping properties can be verified by any undergraduate in any lab,” notes climate scientist Katharine Hayhoe of Texas Tech University. “The detection of climate change, and its attribution to human causes, rests on numerous lines of evidence.” They include melting ice sheets, retreating glaciers, rising sea levels and earlier onset of spring, not to mention higher average global temperatures.


Some of the kerfuffle rests on a misreading of the e-mails’ wording. For example, “trick” in one message actually describes a decision to use observed temperatures rather than stand-in data inferred from tree rings. Instead of implying deception, the word itself in science often refers to a strategy to solve a problem. Even those scientific papers specifically challenged by the e-mails—one message vowed to keep them out of a report by the United Nations’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change “even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is”—nonetheless made it into the most recent IPCC report.

Even if the CRU data “were dismissed as tainted, it would not matter,” argues IPCC contributor Gary Yohe of Wesleyan University. “CRU is but one source of analysis whose conclusions have been validated by other researchers around the world.” Other sources include NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s National Climatic Data Center, and even the IPCC, all of which provide access to raw data.


Scientists are human. They have biases, make mistakes, and sometimes behave badly. But science as a whole is self-correcting. Despite the best efforts of Congress, experimental results and diligent observations cannot be voted out of existence.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby bdog » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:13 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:So Ned, should medical students be taught a procedure that can save a woman's life? A simple yes or no will do.

Bumped for an answer. Speak up, Ned.

Henry you're full of shit. You never answered a similarly simple question I asked you in a topic about the teacher's union a few years ago.

You and Ned were MADE for each other.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:35 pm

A few years ago?

You are full of troll.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby Ducatista » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:43 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:It clearly put everthing into question. Don't you agree?

No. Here's the beauty of science, Ned: all the climate change data is always open to question, and it has nothing to do with East Anglia. Questioning is what science is all about.

Happily, bad-apple data doesn’t spoil the whole bunch—except in the minds of people who don’t really get the whole science-y thing. You seem smarter than that, so I’m guessing your climate-change denial is just your usual party-line-right-or-wrong schtick.

The overwhelming majority of reviewed and confirmed evidence supports the idea of anthopogenic climate change, and all the screw-up East Anglians in the world can’t change that.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby HamsterArmageddon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:45 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Sez the group that treats global warming like religion :roll:


Global warming didn't work. The prols saw through the hoax pretty quickly. The religion has been repackaged as 'sustainability.'

It's adherents have a church here in Madison where they can worship at the altar of cuteness and have their wallets bled at the same time, the coop.

The funny thing is, The religion's worshipers keep getting poorer while it's high priests keep buying up more land in Belize for their coffee plantation expansions and eco-tourism enterprises.

Apparently it's the religion of choice for self professed cool people, or whatever. Oddly, its adherents proselytize openness and acceptance as key virtues while openly shunning anyone and everyone who isn't immediately seen as cute, fashion conscious, and boho. OK.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby HamsterArmageddon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:51 pm

jman111 wrote:See what I mean?

When faced with significant evidence in support of and overwhelming scientific agreement upon the existence of anthropogenic global climate change


Right. That's why you clowns repackaged your religion as 'sustainability.'
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby Ducatista » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:51 pm

Oh for crying out loud.

Do conservatives opt out of science classes in school? Or do you have to swear an oath to pretend not to understand what "science" means before you can get your signed 8x10 glossy of Ann Coulter? Or are you really just that stupid?
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby TheBookPolice » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:53 pm

HA's just pissed that no one's helping him fix his amp.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:59 pm

Taxpayer-funded resources are (and should be) susceptible to criticism by taxpayers, even if those criticisms are wacky or unfounded. If taxpayers have anti-abortion views, and their tax dollars are being funded to provide abortion, or educate about abortion, they have every right to object and petition their government to address their grievance. If the UW Hospital were a private institution, there would be no conflict here, as uninvolved taxpayers would have no legitimate authority over the decisions of the hospital.

The contentious issue of the practice of abortion should be debated separately from the issue of public funding of abortion (or anything else). One can be pro-choice, but against public funding of abortion or abortion education. The same reasoning applies to all similar sensitive issues (e.g. education vs publicly-funded education).

On accreditation - I wish our society would look past things like accreditation, which is an arbitrary standard over which consumers have little control that adds no actual knowledge or value to the quality of education at the institution. Basically, accreditation is unnecessary and, in the case of medicine, results in the formation of cartels which impede freedom of choice for patients and doctors alike. The reputation of the UW, especially within Wisconsin, would be strong enough to withstand the loss of accreditation at the medical school. Unfortunately, there are probably licensing laws (also unnecessary) that would make it hard for an 'unaccredited', but otherwise fully prepared doctor to practice medicine legally.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby wack wack » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:06 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:Unfortunately, there are probably licensing laws (also unnecessary) that would make it hard for an 'unaccredited', but otherwise fully prepared doctor to practice medicine legally.


But a doctor who hasn't been trained in abortion procedures isn't fully prepared, especially not as fully prepared as a doctor who has received that training.

This might give us a clue as to why accreditation and licensing may not be "unnecessary."
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby snoqueen » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:22 pm

Right. That's why you clowns repackaged your religion as 'sustainability.'


The entire continent of Europe is working to reduce their greenhouse gases. The Netherlands, where a lot of land is below sea level, is trying to come up with a plan before they're inundated by rising sea levels. China, developing so rapidly they can hardly keep up, is trying to reduce emissions and work for cleaner air, and they're building mass rail transit so people can get around without having to go the cars-and-highways route and add to greenhouse gases. New Zealand is ridiculously green. Brazil is pretty much energy-independent and is using indigenously produced fuel instead of gasoline. Some island nations in the Pacific are facing evacuation because their islands are getting flooded. A new shipping route has opened all by itself in the Arctic so ships can actually dock at ports in the north of Siberia, which has never before been possible in human history.

Hell, the city of Chicago has an active green-roof program and is starting to plant street trees that will survive a much hotter climate than they have today because they realized most of their existing street trees are cool-climate species that will eventually die off and it's pointless to plant more of the same.

Now, what are you people talking about? Do you seriously think everybody else is caught up in some cult and you climate-change deniers are the ones who aren't?
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby HamsterArmageddon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:24 pm

You can get a safe abortion in Mexico for less than $60 depending on where you go. No one has to report to the government that one was done either. Lots of college girls in southern CA go to Mexico for care rather than deal with the American mess of a system. That says a lot.

I used a dentist in Mexico for years, never had a problem. $20 check-ups. Trusted friend of his daughter.

Skills are measured by proof of skill through apprenticeship and trusted networks. Licensing can never prove skill level while costing. Licensing is simply a means to form cartels and increase prices.

The left has never been serious about increasing access or expanding care, they mostly care about controlling licensing gateways and charging fees for these gateways. This thread is proof of that.
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Re: The new state budget and abortion

Postby HamsterArmageddon » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:28 pm

snoqueen wrote:
Right. That's why you clowns repackaged your religion as 'sustainability.'


The entire continent of Europe is working to reduce their greenhouse gases.


So is American business. You don't need to mandate efficiency, it produces its own incentives. What's you point?

By the way. The US is richer than Europe. Do have a problem with that?
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