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Gun Mania

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Re: Gun Mania

Postby DCB » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:36 am

Dangerousman wrote:I think most people would agree that the person who threw the first punch is the "attacker" under most circumstances. Following a person you believe to be suspicious is not an attack. Loss prevention people follow suspicious individuals all the time. Are you entitled to punch them for doing so?

What if someone threatens you with a gun? are you entitled to defend yourself against that?
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:36 am

jman111 wrote:(a bunch of stuff too lengthy to repeat)


It's possible the Bo Morrison case doesn't fit under the Castle Doctrine. That's for the lawyers to decide. But it's not like this is the first time an intruder has been shot by a homeowner. Didn't need the Castle Doctrine to do that!
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby lukpac » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:37 am

Dangerousman wrote:He was killed. Murder is unlawful killing. I'll grant that he was killed but ask you to explain what was unlawful about the killing.


I'd argue it should be unlawful.

To rephrase:

Should that be reason enough to be killed?
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby jman111 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:41 am

Dangerousman wrote:"your ground" simply refers to any location one is legally occupying. I assume both individuals in the Florida case were legally entitled to be present at that location since I've not read anything to suggest otherwise.

I think most people would agree that the person who threw the first punch is the "attacker" under most circumstances.

What if the punch was thrown in "self-defense" against an approaching threat? What if the puncher was trying to "stand his ground" to a suspected assailant?

(sorry DCB- I was a little slow)
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:46 am

DCB wrote:And apparently, the police had asked Zimmerman to stand down before the confrontation. Not only did he have the opportunity to avoid a struggle, he disobeyed a request from the police.


How does one "disobey" a "request?" Orders are disobeyed, requests are declined. There's an important difference.

I remember two instances, once when I witnessed some kids ripping up a park shelter late at night, and another time when I saw kids dropping a bicycle from the pedestrian overpass onto Highway 51 near Woodmans, and I called the police and reported it and I asked if they wanted me to go nab them. They said "no" but I understood it to be in the form of a request, not an order. The police dispatcher cannot "order" you to do anything anyway.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:47 am

DCB wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I think most people would agree that the person who threw the first punch is the "attacker" under most circumstances. Following a person you believe to be suspicious is not an attack. Loss prevention people follow suspicious individuals all the time. Are you entitled to punch them for doing so?

What if someone threatens you with a gun? are you entitled to defend yourself against that?


Sometimes.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Meade » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:48 am

jman111 wrote:What if the punch was thrown in "self-defense" against an approaching threat?

What, exactly is an "approaching" threat? I know the law recognizes a "true threat" but I've never heard the legal term "approaching threat".
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby jman111 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:53 am

Meade wrote:
jman111 wrote:What if the punch was thrown in "self-defense" against an approaching threat?

What, exactly is an "approaching" threat? I know the law recognizes a "true threat" but I've never heard the legal term "approaching threat".

Perhaps, it is someone charging at you and getting in your personal space.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby jman111 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:55 am

Meade wrote: ...but I've never heard the legal term "approaching threat".

Perhaps you should ask someone with a stronger legal background. Know anybody?

Any other terms on this board that don't fit neatly into your "legal term" categorization? (like, maybe "troll" or "chokehold"?)
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Meade » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:00 pm

jman111 wrote:Perhaps you should ask someone with a stronger legal background. Know anybody?

Thank you. I'll take that as admission that, as usual, you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:02 pm

lukpac wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:He was killed. Murder is unlawful killing. I'll grant that he was killed but ask you to explain what was unlawful about the killing.


I'd argue it should be unlawful.

To rephrase:

Should that be reason enough to be killed?


I don't think being drunk and wandering out on a frozen river and breaking through the ice is a nice reason to die either. Nor is drunk driving into a tree. But often drunk people make very bad choices and suffer the consequences. I don't blame the guy for shooting any more than I blame the ice for breaking or the tree for being there. His friends speculate Bo wanted to just hide from the police. Nobody knows his motive for entering the house, but regardless it was a fatal mistake that HE made. I feel sorry for him and for his family, but in the same way I would if he had wandered onto thin ice.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:04 pm

jman111 wrote:
Meade wrote: ...but I've never heard the legal term "approaching threat".

Perhaps you should ask someone with a stronger legal background. Know anybody?

Any other terms on this board that don't fit neatly into your "legal term" categorization? (like, maybe "troll" or "chokehold"?)


Here's (the important part of) Wisconsin's self-defense law.

A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:16 pm

Dangerousman wrote: I feel sorry for him and for his family, but in the same way I would if he had wandered onto thin ice.


So if you make bad choices then you deserve to die. Nice.

Dangerousman wrote: The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.


So just because someone broke into your porch, that constitutes imminent death or great bodily harm. What if it wasn't screened in. I used to have drunks pass out on our front porch in college. Too bad we didn't have the castle doctrine then, cause I would have shot them in the face.

According to the article, the kid put his hand up. HOLY SHIT, kill, kill, kill.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby lukpac » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:18 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I don't think being drunk and wandering out on a frozen river and breaking through the ice is a nice reason to die either. Nor is drunk driving into a tree. But often drunk people make very bad choices and suffer the consequences. I don't blame the guy for shooting any more than I blame the ice for breaking or the tree for being there. His friends speculate Bo wanted to just hide from the police. Nobody knows his motive for entering the house, but regardless it was a fatal mistake that HE made. I feel sorry for him and for his family, but in the same way I would if he had wandered onto thin ice.


Except your analogies are totally bogus. The tree and ice are not people, and conscious decisions would not be made whether to kill somebody or not. On the other hand, a homeowner with a gun has a choice whether to shoot or not, and justification can considered.
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Re: Gun Mania

Postby jman111 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:28 pm

Meade wrote:
jman111 wrote:Perhaps you should ask someone with a stronger legal background. Know anybody?

Thank you. I'll take that as admission that, as usual, you haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

And I'll take your response as reinforcement that you, as usual, have nothing constructive to add to the conversation.
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