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Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby jman111 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:40 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote:Is there justice in putting this dumbass on trial? Or sticking him with a fine or jailtime? There may be a deterrent effect if he is punished, but in my opinion, ignorant dumbasses will be ignorant dumbasses.


Isn't this why we have laws in the first place. If people broke the law and didn't get some form of punishment, then what's the use of having laws.

Agreed. I thought ignorance of a law (or "dumbassery") was not a legitimate defense. Seems to me it takes quite the ignorant dumbass to commit many crimes, but we don't excuse those crimes based on the relative (un)intelligence of the offender, extreme examples excepted.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby kurt_w » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:52 pm

I'm not sure that we have a moral obligation to help enforce laws we disagree with. If Arturo were just making that point in the abstract, I'd agree with him.

But his application of that principle to this case feels a bit strange to me. Why would a libertarian want to turn a blind eye to the extralegal use of force in support of the power and authority of the head of government? Is there any less libertarian cause to be tacitly supporting?
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby kurt_w » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:01 pm

On the other hand, if Arturo's considering this from a purely pragmatic perspective, I guess I could buy that.

I was thinking he meant that something about the "political" nature of this crime made it particularly inviting for a libertarian to choose to ignore it. That still seems wacked to me. But maybe that wasn't what Arturo meant.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby snoqueen » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:03 pm

Arturo's just being consistent -- he doesn't like laws and doesn't feel obligated to help enforce them. I think the idea of an electronic petition is excellent -- if we can verify someone's identity well enough to do bank transactions we ought to be able to apply similar technology to petitions. You'd need in-person paper petitions too, though, since not everyone uses the internet. Also, the in-person thing helps encourage participation and builds a movement.

I think Edgewood missed a beat here. With all the disgusting news of colleges (and churches) covering up for their own, they should realize they're under public scrutiny. The petition tear-up was a teachable moment: these are the laws, and if you flout them you're liable for the consequences. They shouldn't have been a party to hiding what this kid did. Who were the three (?) people whose signatures were destroyed? They're probably also known to the people involved in the incident and they too have rights.

Nobody's going to get thrown in prison -- the students will just get a lesson in the workings of the judicial branch. I'd say the same if the political polarity went the opposite direction. To have a big institution teach kids -- by example -- that following important and principled federal laws is optional or a joke is exactly what leads to stuff like the Penn State mess.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:26 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Misprision of a felony and all that.
"Misprision" is a new word for me, thanks Henry.

I thought it was spelled "misprison" and I thank google for correcting me.

ArturoBandini wrote: Do you dutifully call the cops every time you obtain knowledge that someone bought or sold illegal drugs?

Are you comparing the personal choice to ingest drugs with a felonious attempt at subverting our democratic electoral system?
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby acereraser » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:17 pm

HamsterArmageddon wrote:So what? Talk is cheap.

Make sure to point that out and sound authoritative to TDPF. Didn't jjoyce state that playing the hypocrisy card is boring? Yes he did. But it's only boring if a reformer does it. Leftists get a boring pass here because in this circle jerk, its authoritative, or something.


I didn't play the hypocrisy card. I asked if we should consider Edgewood's religious ties and statements when we discuss their moral obligations. I see nothing partisan about my comments, and yet, look what you posted.

If I am seeing this the wrong way, and HamsterArmageddon has the right take, please, inform me, I must be deranged.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:26 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Misprision of a felony and all that.
"Misprision" is a new word for me, thanks Henry.

I thought it was spelled "misprison" and I thank google for correcting me.
A reverse typo? Nice.
Henry Vilas wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote: Do you dutifully call the cops every time you obtain knowledge that someone bought or sold illegal drugs?

Are you comparing the personal choice to ingest drugs with a felonious attempt at subverting our democratic electoral system?
"Felonious" is used somewhat redundantly here. If it were a felony to ingest drugs, then such an act would be felonious, by definition.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:46 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote: Do you dutifully call the cops every time you obtain knowledge that someone bought or sold illegal drugs?

Are you comparing the personal choice to ingest drugs with a felonious attempt at subverting our democratic electoral system?
"Felonious" is used somewhat redundantly here. If it were a felony to ingest drugs, then such an act would be felonious, by definition.

You quibble. Take out the term "felonious" and I ask you again. Are you trying to compare an individual's decision to ingest drugs with trying to subvert the recall effort? Direct answer, please.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby jman111 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:50 pm

Along those lines....

Don't you suppose Edgewood would contact the police if they were informed of illicit drug sales? Or of illicit drug use?
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:56 pm

kurt_w wrote: I was thinking he meant that something about the "political" nature of this crime made it particularly inviting for a libertarian to choose to ignore it. That still seems wacked to me. But maybe that wasn't what Arturo meant.
Just to be clear, I'm not condoning the behavior of this jackass.

I think this should be tried as a property crime - this guy destroyed a document that belonged to someone else. It didn't belong to "the people" or any other vague entity, but rather the specific people who paid for it to be printed, or otherwise have taken ownership. They may assign whatever value to it that they like and press charges accordingly. Such a property crime shouldn't be treated differently because the political gang in charge (not R's or D's, but the entire political establishment) is offended by this particular instance of paper-ripping. In other words, this was a crime against the owner(s) of that piece of paper, not a crime against our society or democracy as a sacred, abstract concept.
kurt_w wrote:How exactly would "I don't have much respect for government authority" justify turning a blind eye to someone's extralegal use of force to strengthen the power and authority of the governor?
This goes both ways. In order to protect the challenge to the authority of the governor, you're suggesting that our obligatory recourse is to appeal to the authority of the judiciary - a part of the same illegitimate authority system. The right to petition your government is a nice thing, but it's only relevant when you have a government authority to appeal to. If you don't recognize the exclusive authority of the state to do anything, including recognize petitions, then the entire issue becomes moot.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:11 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:You quibble. Take out the term "felonious" and I ask you again. Are you trying to compare an individual's decision to ingest drugs with trying to subvert the recall effort? Direct answer, please.
If simply possessing or ingesting drugs is a felony (which isn't true in most cases), then yes, that's the comparison I'm making. To illustrate more clearly, take the next degree of drug crimes - distribution. This is probably a felony in most instances, but equally victimless if you consider only the distribution itself. If I knew someone who was distributing drugs (feloniously), I would not feel obligated to turn them in to the police. If I knew someone who was interfering with petitions (in the abstract), I would not feel obligated to turn them into police. I would try to inform the people whose petition property was damaged. Government petition crimes are not crimes against humanity, but crimes against government, a lamentable subset of humanity.

Imagine a petition to a non-governmental entity, for example, the Sierra Club, Chamber of Commerce, or a book club. Would you see the severity of the criminal destruction of that petition to be on the same philosophical level as a petition to the government? (I would)
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:14 pm

jman111 wrote:Don't you suppose Edgewood would contact the police if they were informed of illicit drug sales? Or of illicit drug use?
Probably. What's your point? That's a different situation - they can be wrong in one situation and right in another.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby jman111 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:58 pm

ArturoBandini wrote: Do you dutifully call the cops every time you obtain knowledge that someone bought or sold illegal drugs?


ArturoBandini wrote:
jman111 wrote:Don't you suppose Edgewood would contact the police if they were informed of illicit drug sales? Or of illicit drug use?
Probably. What's your point? That's a different situation - they can be wrong in one situation and right in another.


Well, since you brought up the (not) calling of police for illegal drug sales, I extended your apparent accusation of Hank's alleged hypocrisy (yep!) to Edgewood. If they would likely drop the dime for drug use/sales (as you agree), why not for felonious destruction?
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:00 pm

Artie, you facile argument is that destroying the petition is merely a property crime. That is extremely disingenuous. You have total comtempt for the democratic process. How anarchistic of you.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:09 pm

jman111 wrote:Well, since you brought up the (not) calling of police for illegal drug sales, I extended your apparent accusation of Hank's alleged hypocrisy (yep!) to Edgewood. If they would likely drop the dime for drug use/sales (as you agree), why not for felonious destruction?
Are you just trying to turn this into another hypocrisy thread?
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