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Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:19 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Artie, you facile argument is that destroying the petition is merely a property crime. That is extremely disingenuous. You have total comtempt for the democratic process. How anarchistic of you.
Yes, I freely admit that I have contempt for the democratic process. Democracy is not an unalloyed Good. And I align with many parts of anarchist political philosophy. Since that's in the open, what is disingenuous about my argument? It's clear how the petition-ripping is minimally a property crime (physical property was destroyed against the wishes of its owner). Can you describe to me how it is additionally a crime of another sort?
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby jman111 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:22 pm

Face it, many arguments here hinge on accusations of hypocrisy.

Was your question to Hank
ArturoBandini wrote: Do you dutifully call the cops every time you obtain knowledge that someone bought or sold illegal drugs?

not an example of just such an accusation, albeit veiled?
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:27 pm

jman111 wrote:Face it, many arguments here hinge on accusations of hypocrisy.
Was your question to Hank not an example of such?
Hank's possible hypocrisy isn't the issue. I don't care whether he is being a hypocrite or not. I'm just trying to demonstrate how the same reasoning (legal vs. moral definitions of 'crimes') can be applied to different situations.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby jman111 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:39 pm

Well, then, perhaps I'm just trying to demonstrate how the nature of a particular crime could potentially affect the willingness of Edgewood to call the cops.

On the morality issue (and ignoring the relative significance of gov't or the validity of a recall effort), don't you see the destruction of the petition, which essentially contains the proclaimed intentions of support of three individuals, as something more than a crime of destruction of a piece of paper?

What if the document being destroyed was a deed or title of ownership? Would that document hold more value than that of the paper on which it's printed?
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:01 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Artie, you facile argument is that destroying the petition is merely a property crime. That is extremely disingenuous. You have total comtempt for the democratic process. How anarchistic of you.
Yes, I freely admit that I have contempt for the democratic process.

And I have contempt for anarchy. That is how you and I disagree.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:31 pm

jman111 wrote:Well, then, perhaps I'm just trying to demonstrate how the nature of a particular crime could potentially affect the willingness of Edgewood to call the cops.
I commend your demonstration skills. My comments shouldn't be taken as wholesale judgments of Edgewood or Henry.
jman111 wrote:On the morality issue (and ignoring the relative significance of gov't or the validity of a recall effort), don't you see the destruction of the petition, which essentially contains the proclaimed intentions of support of three individuals, as something more than a crime of destruction of a piece of paper?

What if the document being destroyed was a deed or title of ownership? Would that document hold more value than that of the paper on which it's printed?
Pieces of paper can have varying values. A deed is more valuable than a McDonald's cheeseburger wrapper by most peoples' judgment (although such a judgment is entirely subjective). The victims of the paper-ripping should pursue indemnification in proportion to their subjective valuation of the paper. In this case, it is wrongly assumed that the State has the authority to intervene on behalf of the supposed victims - whom they deem to be all of society, which includes me and other individuals who don't wish to participate in workings of the State, nor submit to its judgments.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby Stu Levitan » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:06 am

ArturoBandini wrote:Pieces of paper can have varying values. A deed is more valuable than a McDonald's cheeseburger wrapper by most peoples' judgment (although such a judgment is entirely subjective). The victims of the paper-ripping should pursue indemnification in proportion to their subjective valuation of the paper. In this case, it is wrongly assumed that the State has the authority to intervene on behalf of the supposed victims - whom they deem to be all of society, which includes me and other individuals who don't wish to participate in workings of the State, nor submit to its judgments.


That's all utter nonsense. A deed is objectively worth more than a burger wrapper; to say their respective values are subjective is to deny practical reality. It's just foolish. And unless you have somehow foresworn the public protective services, health and safety codes, highway and transportation system, and so on, you DO participate in the workings of the state, whether you like it or not. And, yes, we ALL have an interest in democracy not being subverted by terrorism, corruption, or fraud.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:49 am

Stu Levitan wrote:That's all utter nonsense. A deed is objectively worth more than a burger wrapper; to say their respective values are subjective is to deny practical reality. It's just foolish.
Practically speaking, I agree. But at its core, all value is subjective and dependent on individual preferences and temporal circumstances.
Stu Levitan wrote:And unless you have somehow foresworn the public protective services, health and safety codes, highway and transportation system, and so on, you DO participate in the workings of the state, whether you like it or not.
Is this the first time you've come across an anarcho-capitalist perspective? Because the above is pretty characteristic of the response someone blurts out after half-thinking about this topic. The AnCap response to this is basically that the monopoly power of the State is not the only way to provide these valuable goods and services. You don't find anything distasteful about "whether you like it or not"?
Stu Levitan wrote:And, yes, we ALL have an interest in democracy not being subverted by terrorism, corruption, or fraud.
I'm not saying that people should have an active interest in terrorism, corruption or fraud (your words), with the intent to destroy democracy. But you shouldn't neglect the possibility of simple disinterest in democracy or any other political system. If I don't recognize an interest in democracy sufficient to meet your standards, should I be compelled to have an interest?

With that I'm going to stop pulling this thread in the direction of my TDPF dead horses. If anyone wants to discuss abstract political philosophy, I'm always game, but let's start a new thread for it. I seriously don't try derail threads like this - I'm just answering questions as they are posed, and answers beget more questions, and so on...
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby kurt_w » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:56 am

ArturoBandini wrote:But you shouldn't neglect the possibility of simple disinterest in democracy or any other political system. If I don't recognize an interest in democracy sufficient to meet your standards, should I be compelled to have an interest?

With that I'm going to stop pulling this thread in the direction of my TDPF dead horses. If anyone wants to discuss abstract political philosophy, I'm always game, but let's start a new thread for it. I seriously don't try derail threads like this - I'm just answering questions as they are posed, and answers beget more questions, and so on...


Oh, crikey. So we've taken two pages of posts to establish that someone who does not care about electoral democracy itself probably won't care about attempts to subvert the electoral system?

:roll:

It's a bit disingenuous to say "I'm just answering questions as they are posed", when you actually chose to interject your peculiar philosophy into the thread way back here. That comment began by saying "I wouldn't get bent out of shape about Edgewood's culpability ...." -- well, of course you wouldn't get too bent out of shape about this. The question is whether someone who isn't fundamentally opposed to democracy should or would object to the Edgewood incident.

Arturo, you're like a guy who jumps into a debate about whether McDonald's should reintroduce the McRib, provokes a couple of pages of heated debate, and then drops out after announcing that he's actually a vegan and doesn't eat at McDonald's anyway.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby bdog » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:35 am

Was there actually a McRib? That sounds really disgusting.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby kurt_w » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:45 am

Yeah, the McRib. It's kind of like the common cold of fast food sandwiches -- it appears and disappears, and nobody can quite figure out why ...

... although there has been a lot of speculation lately that its reintroductions and disappearances are mostly determined by the price of pork.

Explaining the Existence of the McRib
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby bdog » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:53 am

heh

Daniel Kim 11/11/2011 05:38 AM in reply to semoto
"A restructured meat product made from pork offal slurry" sounds familiar somehow. Oh, it's very reminiscent of Mortgage-backed Security Issuances. You know, grind up undesirable substandard mortgages into a uniform product, shape it so it looks more 'official', and then sell it to people who can't tell what it's made of.This is an excellent analogy for the origin of our economic troubles.


Maybe we'd better off discussing all topics here in McDonald's food analogies. Might lead to less bickering.

Sorry for the brief foray into McRibbest economics, back to your topic now.
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby kurt_w » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:05 am

bdog wrote:Might lead to less bickering.


Less bickering and more barfing.

"... restructured meat product made from pork offal slurry ..."


Was that really necessary at this time of day? Ugh!
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby Michael Patrick » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:45 am

Pork Offal Slurry = my next band's name...
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Re: Edgewood Student Destroys Recall Petitions

Postby massimo » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:43 pm

Great, one whole half-hour spent reading about the McRib. Just what my day needed.
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