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New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:53 pm

Meade wrote:Has anyone seen or heard from Stu Levitan? I hope he's okay.


You're probably on his ignore list. You're pretty good at making those. I wasn't logged in and happen to see your post, so I thought I'd help calm your concerns.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Huckleby » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:01 pm

wack wack wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Conservatives will never see voter suppression as legitimate issue. Liberals will never see fraud as legitimate concern.


Did your conservative friends offer any numbers or factual information on incidents and frequency of fraud that they are responding to?


If fraud is going on, it might not be reflected in any data.

Frankly, the data I've seen on voter suppression really is not that persuasive.

My own sense is fraud on any scale is virtually impossible, voter suppression far more plausible.

I suggest a compromise that accounts for fears of both sides because it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a rational discussion on either topic that will convince anybody. Strong opinions are based on perceptions of how people behave, and the motives of the opposition.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby pjbogart » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:48 pm

Huckleby wrote:I suggest a compromise that accounts for fears of both sides because it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a rational discussion on either topic that will convince anybody. Strong opinions are based on perceptions of how people behave, and the motives of the opposition.


Huck, you're always the consummate centrist. What exactly will this compromise look like? I guess if Republicans agree to put people who are at least arguably competent in charge of counting votes maybe the Democrats would agree to banning college students from voting.

Basically, you do what you're legally required to do and I'll fuck myself over to show you how much I appreciate your effort.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:21 pm

wack wack wrote:
Did your conservative friends offer any numbers or factual information on incidents and frequency of fraud that they are responding to?


There was some article in the Milw Journal-Sentinel (and I'm not going back to dig it up) where a woman in Waukesha County had her wallet stolen or something and was all upset because she claimed somebody was going to take her ID and go cast her vote for her. I think that was how it went -- anyway, it was sheer paranoia and that's what's driving this entire thing on the popular level. (At higher levels, it's obviously other concerns.)

Paranoia doesn't need much in the way of factual information, numbers, incidents, or frequency of fraud to thrive. Mostly, I'd say it needs talk radio.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:40 am

pjbogart wrote:
Huckleby wrote:I suggest a compromise that accounts for fears of both sides because it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a rational discussion on either topic that will convince anybody. Strong opinions are based on perceptions of how people behave, and the motives of the opposition.


Huck, you're always the consummate centrist. What exactly will this compromise look like? I guess if Republicans agree to put people who are at least arguably competent in charge of counting votes maybe the Democrats would agree to banning college students from voting.

Basically, you do what you're legally required to do and I'll fuck myself over to show you how much I appreciate your effort.


How about Democrats agree that Voter ID won't hurt anything as long as the ID's are free and easily available, and Republicans agree that Voter IDs should be free and easily available?
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby pjbogart » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:27 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:How about Democrats agree that Voter ID won't hurt anything as long as the ID's are free and easily available, and Republicans agree that Voter IDs should be free and easily available?


Sounds as though you're willing to be fucked over, then. Francis, if ten legitimate voters are prevented from voting in order to keep one illegitimate voter from voting, is that a decent trade-off for you? What if that ratio was more like 100:1? 1000:1???

There is absolutely no evidence that any statistically significant voter fraud is taking place in Wisconsin. Why would we deny the right to vote to a single citizen within our State in order to satisfy Republicans' paranoid musings? Republicans are willing to deny the right to vote to tens of thousands of legitimate voters (who they calculate are likely Democrats) in order to curtail a handful of potentially fraudulent votes. And you're OK with that?

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to accept a solution in search of a problem. If you can locate the problem, I'd be happy to consider the solution.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:45 am

pjbogart wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:How about Democrats agree that Voter ID won't hurt anything as long as the ID's are free and easily available, and Republicans agree that Voter IDs should be free and easily available?


Sounds as though you're willing to be fucked over, then. Francis, if ten legitimate voters are prevented from voting in order to keep one illegitimate voter from voting, is that a decent trade-off for you? What if that ratio was more like 100:1? 1000:1???

There is absolutely no evidence that any statistically significant voter fraud is taking place in Wisconsin. Why would we deny the right to vote to a single citizen within our State in order to satisfy Republicans' paranoid musings? Republicans are willing to deny the right to vote to tens of thousands of legitimate voters (who they calculate are likely Democrats) in order to curtail a handful of potentially fraudulent votes. And you're OK with that?

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to accept a solution in search of a problem. If you can locate the problem, I'd be happy to consider the solution.


Sounds like you are jumping to the wrong conclusion.

I'm also not OK with any legitimate voters losing their right to vote. When I said free and easily available, I mean available to every single voter with minimal effort. Have the registration at the polling locations a month before the election. Have programs to bring registration to Nursing homes. Have updating your card as easy as filling out a change of address card.

The problem with using your lack of evidence is that it's the same evidence one would see if there was voter fraud occurring that wasn't being caught. I'm 100% not saying that voter fraud is happening, but rather that the evidence can't logically prove it isn't happening.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Bert Ernie » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Have updating your card as easy as filling out a change of address card.


I'm not sure how simplifying access to acceptable voter ID diminishes voter fraud. Then again, I'm not convinced that voter fraud is of substantial concern.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby snoqueen » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:36 am

When I said free and easily available, I mean available to every single voter with minimal effort. Have the registration at the polling locations a month before the election. Have programs to bring registration to Nursing homes. Have updating your card as easy as filling out a change of addres


We were talking about this on the forum at the time the legislation was revealed, and I (along with others) suggested any government-issued identification should be acceptable for voting. Medicare, Medicaid, and BadgerCare all have a stake in properly identifying their clients, for instance, no less than the Department of Motor Vehicles and possibly moreso because they will be disbursing benefits to the ID holders.

Why were drivers' licenses chosen as the only acceptable voter ID? How about student IDs, which actually were made OK under certain circumstances if I understand right? And Social Security cards, the mother of all ID, certainly ought to count. You need to give your SS number before you can even get a driver's license.

Changing that part of the rule would get rid of over 90% of the problems with zero extra expense to the state.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Detritus » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:41 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:The problem with using your lack of evidence is that it's the same evidence one would see if there was voter fraud occurring that wasn't being caught. I'm 100% not saying that voter fraud is happening, but rather that the evidence can't logically prove it isn't happening.

It isn't necessary to "logically prove" that voter fraud isn't happening, even if that were possible. What is necessary is to prove that voter fraud is either happening or at least a very distinct possibility. The onus is on the side that wants to restrict access to what is a constitutional right, not on the side that opposes those restrictions.

This is especially true right now, with SCOTUS having ruled that corporate political speech cannot be regulated. Voting is the ultimate form of political speech in a democratic system. Interfering with citizens voting while simultaneously allowing unlimited speech from corporations to influence those votes--this is what is going on. Paranoia in service to profit.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:50 am

snoqueen wrote:We were talking about this on the forum at the time the legislation was revealed, and I (along with others) suggested any government-issued identification should be acceptable for voting. Medicare, Medicaid, and BadgerCare all have a stake in properly identifying their clients, for instance, no less than the Department of Motor Vehicles and possibly moreso because they will be disbursing benefits to the ID holders.

Why were drivers' licenses chosen as the only acceptable voter ID? How about student IDs, which actually were made OK under certain circumstances if I understand right? And Social Security cards, the mother of all ID, certainly ought to count. You need to give your SS number before you can even get a driver's license.

Changing that part of the rule would get rid of over 90% of the problems with zero extra expense to the state.


This is probably more in line with what I am thinking than a new special ID. Though a new ID that could serve all of those needs and could be issued by any of those agencies is an idea worth exploring.

I think it is pretty obvious why student id's (as well as Medicare, Medicaid, and BadgerCare) were not OK when they wrote the bill.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:06 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:I think it is pretty obvious why student id's (as well as Medicare, Medicaid, and BadgerCare) were not OK when they wrote the bill.

Not too me (unless the GOP controlled Legislature thought people who only held those types of IDs were more likely to vote for Dems). The rules were written so that even if the DL had an old address, it would be accepted at the polls as long as it was unexpired.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:08 am

Detritus wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:The problem with using your lack of evidence is that it's the same evidence one would see if there was voter fraud occurring that wasn't being caught. I'm 100% not saying that voter fraud is happening, but rather that the evidence can't logically prove it isn't happening.

It isn't necessary to "logically prove" that voter fraud isn't happening, even if that were possible. What is necessary is to prove that voter fraud is either happening or at least a very distinct possibility. The onus is on the side that wants to restrict access to what is a constitutional right, not on the side that opposes those restrictions.


The problem is I don't see a way we can prove it. The tools just are not there in terms of monitoring whether it happens or not. Maybe it is a solution looking for a problem, but the programmer in me sees a hole looking to be plugged.

Detritus wrote:This is especially true right now, with SCOTUS having ruled that corporate political speech cannot be regulated. Voting is the ultimate form of political speech in a democratic system. Interfering with citizens voting while simultaneously allowing unlimited speech from corporations to influence those votes--this is what is going on. Paranoia in service to profit.

I see the best way to shut the conservatives up about this issue (and insure that it doesn't actually interfere with voting rights) is to go along with it, and make sure it's done in a fair way, that disenfranchises no one. Then it stops being an issue they can draw on.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:09 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:I think it is pretty obvious why student id's (as well as Medicare, Medicaid, and BadgerCare) were not OK when they wrote the bill.

Not too me (unless the GOP controlled Legislature thought people who only held those types of IDs were more likely to vote for Dems). The rules were written so that even if the DL had an old address, it would be accepted at the polls as long as it was unexpired.


um, based on your comment, I think it's pretty obvious to you too Henry.
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Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby wack wack » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:22 am

Detritus wrote:It isn't necessary to "logically prove" that voter fraud isn't happening, even if that were possible. What is necessary is to prove that voter fraud is either happening or at least a very distinct possibility. The onus is on the side that wants to restrict access to what is a constitutional right, not on the side that opposes those restrictions.


This is what makes me crazy, the complete lack of foundation. However, I then think about how conservatives are more than happy to base legislation on things that a god, who may or may not exist, may or may not have said or believed. Then it kinda makes sense.
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