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What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:05 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:The criticism of Doyle is interesting for two reasons, imo. Doyle inherited a $3.2 billion debt from Tommy Thompson


Well, maybe Scott McCallum, since Thompson had been out of office for a couple of years before Doyle was elected.

Why does everyone seem to forget that Doyle ran on the promise to get rid of 10,000 state jobs?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:10 pm

snoqueen wrote:OK, there's one good list of test items to follow for the next 2 1/2 years. I am pleased to note they are quality-of-life items, because our government exists, one way or the other, not as a self-serving entity but instead to serve the well-being of the people. How would you measure these quality-related items? What would you add or take out?


Well how about the amount of political freedom? Shit, they had free education and health care in the Soviet Union. But the "quality of life" wasn't that great for the average Иосиф.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:14 pm

McCallum reduced Thompson's debt.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Broadsheet » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:33 pm

"We had excellent job growth under Doyle's budget." There it is again, the crazy idea that jobs depend on who is governor.

The president and the Congress can do a lot to create (and destroy) jobs through their control of trade, the money supply, and debt. Governors and mayors have no such powers.

Walker saying that "under Barrett" unemployment rose in Milwaukee made as much sense as saying that it rose "under the Archbishop Dolan."

Barrett was mayor and had some say over city jobs and contracts. The recent job cuts at Briggs & Stratton, for example, had nothing to do with him, just as the recent job cuts at American Family here in Madison had nothing to do with Walkeror Soglin.
They were private-sector decisions made with markets, profits, and shareholders in mind.

Democrats were suckered into the jobs debate. The right wants you to believe that your job depends on the actions of political leaders, not business decisions made by business leaders for whom the governor is small potatoes and shareholder interest comes first.

Walker should be measured on public services and government performance, not how the private sector performs "under" him.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:42 pm

Governors do, in fact, create or destroy a climate for business. Turning down jobs for partisan purposes, like Walker did would discourage some businesses from opening or moving to Wisconsin. Likewise, tearing education apart would discourage potential business owners from starting if they want their kids to grow up in a State that provides for it's school system. Also, corporations that aren't favored by the Governor's tax breaks would think twice about trying to compete with those that are. And along the same theme, when a person who is thinking about starting a business sees a major shift of wealth from the consumer classes that his profits depend on to the favored corporations, he would wisely think again about his ability to make a profit. These are all factors in the Governor's and legislature's control.

The proof is in the pudding when you look at the sudden reversal from steady job growth before these new restrictions existed to consistent job losses when these policies were put into place.

...while the rest of the country is gaining jobs.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:52 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:McCallum reduced Thompson's debt.


The entire tactic of calling it "Thompson's debt" or "Doyle's debt" really amounts to an evasion of the truth. No Wisconsin governor has been a king who single-handedly decreed budgets and legislation. Any blame for debt, or credit for reducing it, ought to take into account all of the players, both legislative and executive. It takes a team effort, albeit a rather dysfunctional team often. But it is a group effort nonetheless. There were only two years during the approximately 14 years that Tommy Thompson was governor that the Republican controlled both houses of the legislature. The Democrats controlled both houses during his first 6 years, and control was mixed the rest of the years except for the two mentioned earlier. During McCallum's time in office the Democrats had a majority in the Senate and the Republicans held it in the Assembly.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:40 pm

Legislatures generally pass most of what a Governor proposes. They become the "Governor's policies" when he alone promotes them or puts them out there for debate. Each governor has a pattern. Thompson had a pattern of big spending coupled with giveaways to construction contractors. I'm not a student of his tenure, however.

Doyle's pattern was one of maneuvering to give a balanced budget, and even of reducing the debt by $500 million.

Walker's tenure so far, with full GOP control of the legislature and the Supreme Court, is one of massive wealth redistribution to the top, increased debt and job losses during a recovery.

Accusing me of avoiding truth is your new straw man, Dman. It's also your MO in debate.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:43 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:Legislatures generally pass most of what a Governor proposes. They become the "Governor's policies" when he alone promotes them or puts them out there for debate. Each governor has a pattern. Thompson had a pattern of big spending coupled with giveaways to construction contractors. I'm not a student of his tenure, however.

Doyle's pattern was one of maneuvering to give a balanced budget, and even of reducing the debt by $500 million.

Walker's tenure so far, with full GOP control of the legislature and the Supreme Court, is one of massive wealth redistribution to the top, increased debt and job losses during a recovery.

Accusing me of avoiding truth is your new straw man, Dman. It's also your MO in debate.


Avoiding the truth is your MO. And you might want to re-read what a "straw man" is, because you just admitted to avoiding the truth.

As far as legislature generally passing most of what a governor proposes, whose fault is that?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:03 pm

Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good a point someone makes, you knock over the pieces with NRA mantra and crap all over the board. Good day, sir!
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:16 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good a point someone makes, you knock over the pieces with NRA mantra and crap all over the board. Good day, sir!


Talking about debt is NRA mantra? I think you better re-examine what you think are the "good points" you've made. Just because you firmly believe them doesn't make 'em good.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:22 pm

Sorry, I got carried away...

Your straw man is the idea that Governor's have nothing to do with the debt when in fact they present the main ideas for the budget every time and legislature modifies it. You even claimed it wasn't true. Obviously it does depend on the make up of the legislature for each Governor, however they do set patterns by what they propose.

So your straw man was to focus on that particular point rather than what each governor actually did. You do it ALL THE TIME. And I suspect it does have something to do with the way you've programmed yourself in tune with the NRA mantras you've memorized verbatim and indoctrinated into your personality.

Either that or you're just narrow minded to begin with, so you naturally flock to that kind of thinking.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:40 pm

Meade wrote:
snoqueen wrote:We've got a fairly decent laboratory here with controls in the form of Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, maybe even Michigan.

Even moderately better states to use for purposes of comparing and contrasting with Wisconsin two years from today: Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, California.


WTTW, in practice on TDPF, if someone is being constructive and conciliatory I find its best to meet their gesture with the same. Nice to see some fellow conservatives on the forum and I know you weren't exactly flaming snow but from long experience I can say (and recommend) that this forum is at its best when a big argument gives way to just a little bit of consensus. Sometimes you win more points by ceding one or two. Snow's laboratory comment is true enough that conservatives can also recognize its utility.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Bludgeon » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:17 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:Arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good a point someone makes, you knock over the pieces with NRA mantra and crap all over the board. Good day, sir!


Talking about debt is NRA mantra? I think you better re-examine what you think are the "good points" you've made. Just because you firmly believe them doesn't make 'em good.


Go easy on the pigeon, Danger ;)

Broadsheet wrote:There it is again, the crazy idea that jobs depend on who is governor.

The president and the Congress can do a lot to create (and destroy) jobs through their control of trade, the money supply, and debt. Governors and mayors have no such powers.

Walker saying that "under Barrett" unemployment rose in Milwaukee made as much sense as saying that it rose "under the Archbishop Dolan."

Democrats were suckered into the jobs debate. The right wants you to believe that your job depends on the actions of political leaders, not business decisions made by business leaders for whom the governor is small potatoes and shareholder interest comes first.

States have a lot of power - if they didn't one state would be as good as the next to start a business in, other than the scenery. Silicon Valley is slowly but surely moving to Texas from California. Why not New York or Massachusetts? Why would Boeing start gearing up for a move out of the state of Washington, to South Carolina?

The idea that a governor or even a president is merely a figurehead with little power to affect anything (and I've heard both) is ridiculous, and I really dislike seeing that notion trotted around. Did Democrats spend the last two years trying to recall a "figurehead"? What would be the point? Why did Americans hold a revolution to begin with, if policy didn't matter? The apathetic idea that leaders are powerless to fix the problems in their state or nation, when prevalent, begets an apathetic, powerless populace whose leaders don't take their jobs seriously, and don't fix anything. In this recession some states have fared better than others. Whoever people vote for it should be with the idea that that person has a job to do, and the expectation that that job will be done.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Donald » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:57 pm

Just a little note here about the power of governors. Be careful about generalizing. The Texas Constitution imparts very little power on the position of Governor, while Wisconsin's Constitution provides the office of Governor with immense power. States are not all the same.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:08 pm

When Thompson was governor he was said to be one of the most powerful in the country, due in large part to the line-item veto. Not that much has changed.

However, I don't agree that legislatures usually agree with what a governor proposes. It goes by party, more often. And in the current state government, Walker has usually signed whatever the legislature (two houses Republican, at the time) sent to his desk. What was missing was public review and bipartisan input, but that's another story.
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