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Split the State?

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Re: Split the State?

Postby green union terrace chair » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:37 pm

Stomach wrote:
Meade wrote:Instead of splitting the state, we should go the other way: reclaim the Upper Peninsula from Michigan and rename the Great Lake to our right "Lake Wisconsin".


Look at me, I'm agreeing with Meade. Maybe he'll invite me over for a brat?

Holy shit, me too. I also think the US should take all land from Canada on the south bank of the St. Lawrence Seaway, including New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Manifest Destiny to the North!
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Re: Split the State?

Postby green union terrace chair » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:40 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:It's been proposed before:
A culture common to the northern counties of Wisconsin, together with Michigan's Upper Peninsula and northeastern counties of Minnesota that is not shared as strongly with the southern portions of each state has resulted in considerations of forming a state known as Superior. These have not been taken very seriously, as most of the northern counties are dependent on the southern parts of their states for funding.

More on the proposed state of Superior, with map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_( ... U.S._state)
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Re: Split the State?

Postby lukpac » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:42 pm

Meade wrote:Instead of splitting the state, we should go the other way: reclaim the Upper Peninsula from Michigan and rename the Great Lake to our right "Lake Wisconsin".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wisconsin
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Re: Split the State?

Postby lukpac » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:45 pm

Link fixed:

green union terrace chair wrote:More on the proposed state of Superior, with map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_(proposed_U.S._state)
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Re: Split the State?

Postby Meade » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:10 pm

Stomach wrote:Look at me, I'm agreeing with Meade. Maybe he'll invite me over for a brat?.

Not only a brat, Stomach, but a brat and beer. Topic for discussion: Declaration of war on Michigan.
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Re: Split the State?

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:28 pm

bleurose wrote:The very end of what Henry quoted.

Bludg's idea that the northern part of the state would somehow prosper in the timber industry if "freed" from the so-called fetters of regulation is a temporary illusion which has almost nothing to do with reality.

Several reality checks:

Most of the loggable acres most likely belong to large timber companies with no vested interest in the state or its citizens. They will clear cut their acres while paying as low a wage as they can manage to local residents and when the trees are gone, so are they. And during the time that they are pillaging the landscape, such companies will not only probably get tax payer-subsidized incentives for "creating jobs", they will also manage to pay little to no taxes to the state via several well-established loop holes and deductions. Because while they are paying minimum wages to the locals, they are paying top dollar to those tax attorneys and accountants who find ways for them to avoid paying any taxes to the state. Then, when the landscape is bare and subject to massive erosion, they will be gone because one of those "onerous" regulations that was eliminated was planting back those acres. Why should a "job-creating" company have to be subject to that expense? It's not "their" problem :roll: . Which is the poster-child reason why eliminating rules/regulations and going to a system of "self-regulation" will never work.

And then once the North woods have run through one main resource, I'm sure they will look around and start the mining. Once the mining companies have left their devastation behind, but not any of their money and none of those low wage no benefit jobs, what is left? Not even tourism because who wants to visit a barren moonscape.

This brings me in a roundabout way to saying that while the idea of dividing geographic areas into ever dwindling political/social boundaries seems attractive, there is a point beyond which the surgically separated areas simply cannot survive due to a lack of natural and other resources which come with ever smaller populations and geography.

I am sympathetic to some of what Bludg says and have come to that view as the country, the state, the county (pick your political unit) have become more and more philosophically divided. No one has a lock on the best ideas or even all of the good ones: there is absolutely a dialog to be had on how to help our fellow citizens attain a decent job with good wages and benefits by using our state's resources (I'm still going with Bludg's example here). In order to do this, we ALL have to look out for each other and not allow our neighbors to be taken advantage of by corporate interests nor by squeezing every last possible resource out of the ground/earth/water/etc no matter what the cost. At the same time, we have to acknowledge that if companies are making the investments, they need to get a decent and reasonable return on that investment. If they don't profit, none of us do. But suitable investment return does not automatically equate with obscene profit. And it shouldn't be obscene profit with no regulations or nothing because that is what the situation is these days.

Citizens and corporations should be able to have some respect for each other. But they don't and I don't know how to start getting that back. Listening would sure help, but if everyone is shouting, how can we hear? Giving a little here & there would be a biggie, but if everyone is completely dug into their trenches, how do we get there? Playing "gotcha" and "dropping bombs" will never get us anywhere. When I grew up, that behavior was called bullying and gloating.


Re: timber industry...

...make that the lumber industry as a whole, harvesting to production. I believe the Native Americans own (and continue to buy) a large bit of the arable land, notably along beautiful Hwy 55 and 32; and much is owned by the state. Lumberjacking isn't really a wage job even if you are an employee. Its kind of a production-commission where as an employee you're paid for what you produce or as a small business owner you're paid directly by the mill, which is your customer. Families used to make a good bit of money in this profession. The increasing cost of regulation compliance compounded by inflation, though, has driven most people out of the business. A lot of people in Madison have only an antiquated notion of the industry's affect on the environment, which can be insulting to people in the north because, Republicans though they be, the truth is they care much more about the land and the future of its environment than people in the cities; there's a growing sense of stewardship. On top of all the prohibitive costs and diminishing profits, they occasionally have to deal with wrong-headed protesters or carpetbaggers from the capital who tend to make a big fuss without knowing what they're talking about.

Anyway the going arguments against the Ontonagon experiment often center around the size of its economy. I'm only saying that the size of its economy under the thralldom of Lansing and Madison grossly misrepresent the potential of the region. There's a lot more than lumber to be made.
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Re: Split the State?

Postby Detritus » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:30 pm

I say we annex Chicago and its suburbs. Illinois isn't doing anything with it, and we could use the revenue. Just move the border south--may as well take Rockford along with.
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Re: Split the State?

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:34 pm

Detritus wrote:I say we annex Chicago and its suburbs. Illinois isn't doing anything with it, and we could use the revenue. Just move the border south--may as well take Rockford along with.

Originally the territory that became the state of Wisconsin did extent that far south.
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Re: Split the State?

Postby peripat » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:36 pm

This is kind of like cable TV- you know, in the old days everyone had to watch the same programs & so had a similar frame of reference, but now some can watch the golf channel all day & others can watch fighting bimbo based reality TV & never the twain shall meet. As long as we know no one who disagrees with us we should be fine.
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Re: Split the State?

Postby Detritus » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:30 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Detritus wrote:I say we annex Chicago and its suburbs. Illinois isn't doing anything with it, and we could use the revenue. Just move the border south--may as well take Rockford along with.

Originally the territory that became the state of Wisconsin did extent that far south.

We wuz robbed!
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Re: Split the State?

Postby Igor » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:18 am

Detritus wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
Detritus wrote:I say we annex Chicago and its suburbs. Illinois isn't doing anything with it, and we could use the revenue. Just move the border south--may as well take Rockford along with.

Originally the territory that became the state of Wisconsin did extent that far south.

We wuz robbed!


In addition, we lost a chunk of da UP to Michigan because they (surprise) lost the Toledo War to Ohio.
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Re: Split the State?

Postby wack wack » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:29 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
Detritus wrote:I say we annex Chicago and its suburbs. Illinois isn't doing anything with it, and we could use the revenue. Just move the border south--may as well take Rockford along with.

Originally the territory that became the state of Wisconsin did extent that far south.


As far as the Chicago area is concerned, Wisconsin is already just another suburb.
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Re: Split the State?

Postby jjoyce » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:24 am

I just returned from the north, namely Algoma. South of Door County by only a few miles, it might as well be on another continent for the relative lack of quaintness found in the communities to its north.

People I dealt with there (admittedly limited to people who own/operate bars and their customers) are largely apolitical. Their fortunes rise and fall with tourism which they believe relies on the state of the environment and the ability of middle class people (DC is much more reliant on wealthy visitors) in this state and Illinois to afford vacations.

Also this: They love Madison. Several said they lived here once or would love to live here.
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Re: Split the State?

Postby olsonja » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:43 pm

This is one side effect of a state split. The northern state will be blanketed by companies eager to take every resource from the land. And these companies will then leave and leaving behind environmental disasters. South Wisconsin should choose another path.

How about these ideas for future economic growth:

1) Change as many interstate, state and county highways into tollways where these roads leave South Wisconsin. There is a lot of traffic that now passes through the southern counties that uses these roads without paying.

2) Convert as much as possible the land now buried under suburbs back to farm land. A South Wisconsin could have tax laws to make it expensive to live in the burbs. In the years and decades ahead because of Global Warming existing farmland will become marginalized. Every inch/acre will be needed.

3) Major-Major investment in cheap broadband internet. The faster the internet more new businesses could start in a South Wisconsin.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/28/why- ... -governme/

http://www.euractiv.com/infosociety/eu- ... ews-223385
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Re: Split the State?

Postby Elrond » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:12 pm

Let's not take Rockford.
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