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Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Schabow » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:08 am

bdog wrote:
Schabow wrote:They need to boast about how their policies are the morally and just endeavors.

Oh yuck!

Even if that is your goal you must not come out and say it. The big middle translates that into "my taxes are going to go up".

You touched on it in your health care reform section - convince them this is actually the cheaper way to go (whether or not that is true is a different matter). Add the moral stuff as an afterthought.



I get what you're saying and have a fair point. I try to always touch on the progressive way, is actually the common sense approach.
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby bdog » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:23 am

bdog wrote:I would ask "so what"? If everyone stuck to the moral high ground we wouldn't be here right now. This country needs people who want nothing to do with moral high ground. That's just the way the world works.


This is a better presentation of what I was trying to get at (bold is my emphasis):

"A species in which everyone was General Patton would not succeed, any more than would a race in which everyone was Vincent van Gogh. I prefer to think that the planet needs athletes, philosophers, sex symbols, painters, scientists, it needs the warmhearted, the hardhearted, the coldhearted, and the weakhearted. It needs those who can devote their lives to studying how many dropUlets of water are secreted by the salivary glands of dogs under which circumstances, and it needs those who can capture the passing impression of cherry blossoms in a fourteen-syllable poem or devote twenty-five pages to the dissection of a small boy's feelings as he lies in bed in the dark waiting for his mother to kiss him goodnight...."


Allen Shawn via Susan Cain's book "Quiet"
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Cornbread » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:15 pm

jjoyce wrote:
Cornbread wrote:requiring someone to have a form of identification


That's not really how the law works, though. It doesn't accept the vast majority of ID formats and requires only state-issued ID, and a narrow slice of that category.

Please elaborate.
I would think an IL DL couldn't be used to vote in a WI election--OK, in racine, yes.
I'd hope a college ID would NOTallow someone to vote as there are out of state, even out of country students.

And it used to be that in order to get a WI state ID/DL, one didn't even have to prove they were a US citizen. That had since changed though.

Voting is a constitutional right and ought not be limited at all, many argue.

No one I know of is arguing for the limiting of a person exercising their right to vote. The only thing I know is people are wanting to make sure no one steals the constitutionally guaranteed slot of a person in the 'one person, one vote" system (excluding democrat dominated cities of course).

IIRC, there's also something called "reconciling" where if there are any over votes per that precinct, votes are randomly removed. So, w/no voter ID needed, 100 votes could be cast in a place where only 80 people are registered (non same day as democrat criminals want) to vote. What this means is at the end of the voting period, 20 votes are REMOVED, randomly.
This is little more than vote stealing by cancelling out someone's vote. Could be your vote, could be mine, could be adolf hitler's (assuming he voted as he signed the recall petition).

ALL citizens have the right to vote, not just those who can get to the DMV by election day.

How can anyone function w/o a picture form of ID. This isn't the 1960s/70s anymore where WI DL's don't have a picture on them. And didn't take much to cash a check, write a check, open a bank account, get utilities, get ....
And they even give away FREE ID cards.

In a society that presumes innocence, shouldn't the burden of proof be on the accuser as opposed to the accused?

Are you serious? Really? The system is set up so proving something is impossible.
How can you tell if someone is an illegal if you cannot ask them for an ID? That's what you are asking me and others to do.

If there is no ID required to cast a vote for Mr. Z, at 110 maple street, then why should there be any reason to prove that someone is eligible to vote at 110 maple street? Or that 110 maple street is even a house, and not a walmart (see weak DL rules).

Why not just let anyone and everyone that wants to vote in any election, just walk in off the street and vote?

Just set up the system that is accountable as each and every voter deserves no less.
Last edited by Cornbread on Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Cornbread » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:37 pm

Schabow wrote:If you watch my video, it shows video footage from Mike Turzoi at a GOP convention stating “Voter ID, which is going to allow Gov Romney to win the State of Pennsylvania…Done.”

Don't know who he is, but so what?
If a form if ID is required, how can there be any fraud?
It would be interesting if, say detroit, chicago, new orleans, racine, and milwaukee could actually have UN monitored elections that require a form of identification and residence, then see how things turn out. I'd imagine quite differently.

Don't see any problem there.

Then there was a huge applause from the rest of the GOP politicians in the auditorium.

Every voter that wants their vote to count SHOULD demand ID requirements. BTW, I would think that someone stating their candidate would win a state would get huge applause. I even think it happens when obama or his dregs say things like that at conventions and the like.

There aren’t major Voter Fraud problems

How do you define "major" from 'minor' problems?
And how do you know?

Wanna see a white guy going to cast that racist pig eric holder's vote?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKAiOXlvUjQ
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILJDudUpct0
or....

I really question the outlook of people so against any form of ID to vote. Really. At best, they are sheltered and believing all the very limited information they have/are given, or they are true believers and they can fall into "we are all one world, so everyone can do anything" or the machavellian 'the ends justify the means', aka "by any means necessary".

The Voter ID Law suppresses the vote of College Students

I was in college in two different states, yet couldn't use my college ID to drive, open a bank account, buy a gun, etc. I had one college ID when I wasn't even a resident of that state as I just moved there, and was there for a very short time.

the poor

Poor people don't have any form of identification? Where do they live, under bridges and eat grass?

African Americans

I assume you're talking about black folks.
Um, this may be a newsflash to leftists, but black folks do have IDs. Really. And slavery really did end. :D

the elderly

All my dead old relatives had IDs. OK, if they were in racine or chicago, they still could be voting, but that's the way there.
They all had bank accounts, utilities, used health insurance, etc.

Hey, do people have to have some form of ID to use medicare/medicaid?........

that’s why the GOP is pushing this law. They simply don’t want those people to vote.


You have truly fabricated a strawman and have gone around it, in circles, tossing accusations at it left and right, finally proclaiming that last sentence.
I hope your vids are better as in two dimensional text, you have nothing, really, absolutely nothing.

Also, I know it may be hard to understand, but there are truly people so poor and so elderly that they don’t have the means to get an ID.

You would be surprised to know what I "understand", so you clearly don't speak for me in that generalization to no one.







Not everyone lives like you and me.[/quote]
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby david cohen » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:31 pm

If you don't already have a photo ID for one reason or another, obtaining one is difficult. You need your Social Security Card, and if you don't physically possess one, but know your SS#, you are out of luck, even with a certified birth certificate. You see, in order to get a replacement Social Security Card (so you can get a photo ID from the state), you need a photo ID from the state! Now, imagine that you reside on the north side of Madison and have to use Madison Metro to get to the Social Security office on Odana Rd. So you schlep over there, with your Certified Birth Certificate, your SS# in hand, some mail indicating your current legal residence, and a ton of other docs to prove you reside there. All the Social Security office will give you is a statement confirming your correct SS#, and they tell you that the Dept. of Transportation will accept this so you can get your Photo ID. Then you take the bus to DOT, only to have DOT tell you that they won't issue a Photo ID without your Social Security Card. Call your doctor, they say, and have him give you a certified copy of your medical record!

Now, imagine that you are a disabled person, 18 yrs of age or older, with no means except public transportation, having to run in circles around agencies in Madison just to get that photo ID so you can vote, go on an airplane, prove you're not an illegal immigrant, etc. I know conservatives could never imagine that anything like this could happen in our great country! Talk about moral low ground....
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Cornbread » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:39 pm

bdog wrote:"A species in which everyone was General Patton would not succeed, any more than would a race in which everyone was Vincent van Gogh.


Only about 10% of the people are leaders, the other 80% are followers, with the last 10% irreconcilable screw ups.

Ecclesiastes 3

Sometimes violence is the only answer. Other times, a written contract will do, or even a handshake. Who was that ruskie that said, "you may not want war, but war want's you"?
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:07 am

Also, I know it may be hard to understand, but there are truly people so poor and so elderly that they don’t have the means to get an ID.
Schabow


If they are poor and elderly would they not qualify for Social Security and other programs? Do you think those programs would be more effective without some way of identifying the recipients? Or do you prefer we just put EBT cards in a basket by the office door and people help themselves?
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby TeachInPeace » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:12 am

Y'all realize that these are the point for point arguments used in the 1920s-1950s regarding poll takes, voter "literacy" tests, and all other subtle voter suppression tactics once used/still used in this country, right? In this country all citizens vote. Full stop. The number of proven fraudulent voters is low, by all accounts, and seemingly too low the added expense and logistical nightmare of the new law. Fact is, when I moved I had to re-register, which required my passport + my lease, since I didn't/don't have a WI driver's license. Same day registration/verification is enough of a control to ensure the the homeless, ID less, transportation less, extra money less, are not disenfranchised.

And yes, people who live in extreme poverty (yes, we have that in WI) do not have the same resources/mobility that the general population enjoys. You'd be surprised.
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:29 am

Why do you not want to help those people who live in extreme poverty? Why would you deny them access to the many government programs that are there to help them? Apparently all you care about them is their vote.
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:43 am

Rich Schultz wrote:Why do you not want to help those people who live in extreme poverty? Why would you deny them access to the many government programs that are there to help them?

Shouldn't you be addressing Walker, who does not want to implement health care reform, as many in extreme poverty have no coverage?
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:53 am

Is Obamacare going to be available to people with no ID?
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby pjbogart » Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:54 am

The strange thing about the voter ID controversy is that I don't think a single Republican poster here really cares if voters are disenfranchised. To them, politics is a game. Whatever hurts Democrats thereby helps Republicans and is therefore a good idea. Neener, neener, neener.

The vacuous argument that voter ID laws protect the integrity of our elections assumes that our elections have an integrity problem, which no one has bothered to show.

Accusing Republicans of being insensitive, not caring about Democracy or trying to steal elections is completely pointless. They don't care. The ends justify the means. Period.
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby peripat » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:04 am

It's all academic anyway. Since a photo ID is not very accurate (think of every kid successfully using a fake ID with someone else's picture) we'll end up with something more high tech. I expect eventually we'll all be 'chipped' at birth like pets (but somewhere hard to remove) or have complete gene scans on file so the election officials can just swab our cheeks and verify our identity. Photo ID is just not reliable,
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby bdog » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:15 am

Rich Schultz wrote:Is Obamacare going to be available to people with no ID?

Of course not. But liberals like Peej just don't give a shit.

The end justifies the means. Pathetic.
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Re: Top Five Reasons Progressives Have the Moral High Ground

Postby Peanutbutter » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:18 am

Rich Schultz wrote:Is Obamacare going to be available to people with no ID?


Of course it will be or there would be all kinds of liberals complaining about it.

Then again that assumes that liberals aren't flaming hypocrites. And that is a huge assumption.
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