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local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

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local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby jjoyce » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:39 am

Interesting situation going on up in Wood County. A hotbed of sand mining activity, Wood County wants the sand hauling companies to pay fees that will cover the costs of having to repair and replace the roads they are using heavily to haul hundreds of truckloads of frac sand per day.

Three legislators are attempting to intervene by stepping up to the county government (which, as we know, is responsible for maintaining the roads) and insisting that the selective fees seem unfair and, worse, will dissuade the job creation that results from the sand mining industry.

City of Marshfield leaders and local trucking companies have said the agreements unfairly target a single industry without charging other haulers extra. Wood County officials have said some county roads were not constructed to withstand the frequency and weight of sand hauling.


But county guy says that the roads aren't built to handle the frequency and weight of sand hauling trucks (few are) and is attempting to make sure that the costs of rebuilding infrastructure aren't passed on to the taxpayers later. This invokes two conservative shibboleths: looking out for taxpayers and kicking the can down the road.

The oil companies behind this have done a lot of work to hide their interests, sending in locals to clear the way for their sand mining operations. Here's an interesting column from the Minneapolis Star Tribune about one such front man.

Someone asked Ingraham where the headquarters for his company, Muskie Proppants LLC, was located.

Ingraham looked puzzled, then mumbled something about a temporary office somewhere in Wisconsin.

"You can't even name your corporate headquarters, sir," said an area resident, Remy Ceci.

Finally Ingraham gave in: "Greenwich, Connecticut," he said. Muskie is a subsidiary of Wexford Capital, a hedge fund, and partly owned by another energy company in Oklahoma.

And so it went in a small pole barn in western Wisconsin as Ingraham tried to persuade residents of this quaint tourist town along the Mississippi that his plan to bring hundreds of train cars, barges and up to 80 trucks a day filled with sand lumbering through town all day would be good for them.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby wack wack » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:50 am

Considering the way conservatives have piled on Obama lately for suggesting that no one in America became successful without assistance, I'd think the sand hauling companies would be building there own roads.

Roads in good repair for everyone are more important than jobs for a few and big profits for fewer.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby Cornbread » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:12 pm

jjoyce wrote:Interesting situation

I completely agree. :D

A hotbed of sand mining activity, Wood County wants the sand hauling companies to pay fees that will cover the costs of having to repair and replace the roads they are using heavily to haul hundreds of truckloads of frac sand per day.


Something just doesn't seem right with this.
As the linked article states, "The fine silica sand, abundant in central and western Wisconsin" which is very true. Anyone that's been in those areas know this, well that there's sand there (not "fine" though). Also, sand from this area has been used in for glass, filtration, various coatings, cement/concrete, etc. and has been shipped all over the nation and (even the world) for probably over half a century.

So why all the sudden worry about 'environmental/infrastructure' wear and tear now? Could it be that the phrase 'frac sand' now is a political buzzword, a word calling for immediate reaction?

But county guy says that the roads aren't built to handle the frequency and weight of sand hauling trucks (few are) and is attempting to make sure that the costs of rebuilding infrastructure aren't passed on to the taxpayers later.


Or mebbe the county guy is seeing a potential cash cow and wanting beau coup work, lot's of OT, and maybe even maintenance and fees to pay a good retirement for him/her/it?
Reminds me of when a superbowl is played in a city. Suddenly all the rentals of anything and everything go up 4 fold. Or places where the drivers of the economy worldwide (oil/ng) is found and extracted for use....everything there goes thru the roof, price wise....because they can.

Someone asked Ingraham where the headquarters for his company, Muskie Proppants LLC, was located.
...
Finally Ingraham gave in: "Greenwich, Connecticut," he said. Muskie is a subsidiary of Wexford Capital, a hedge fund, and partly owned by another energy company in Oklahoma.

and anyone wonder why leftist democrat boat anchor, I mean chris dOdd is from CT? Or why hillary clinton suddenly became a NY resident so she could be a senator? Or why that pig barney frank (ma) has been in the congressional slots he has?

Most corporations incorporate in doDD's Connecticut or miserable failure harry reid's nevada due to zero tax. Both democrat ran states are set up for corporations to incorporate there and avoid taxes.

So shall we now go after democrats dOdd and 'cowboy poet' reid?

And so it went in a small pole barn in western Wisconsin as Ingraham tried to persuade residents of this quaint tourist town along the Mississippi that his plan to bring hundreds of train cars, barges and up to 80 trucks a day filled with sand lumbering through town all day would be good for them.


So is the small pole barn his new manufacturing site? Sounds more like a meeting place or an office. If there's any sand up there in any quantity, it's already being mined and has been for decades. The only other alternative is some local(s) wanting to sell their homes/land and leave, and they were on top of a good sand deposit.

None of this makes any sense when looking at it from outside of the present political arena, so not much can be said as no informed conclusion can be drawn.....
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:28 pm

http://www.jsonline.com/business/127666118.html

That's a Milw J-S article (from last year) explaining how the scale of the new and proposed sand mines in WI is far greater than any old-time sand-pit land usage. In one case, nearly a square mile has been purchased by a sand mining company.

The article gives background to the issue and the comments of people at several levels of government, in the private sector, and the mining corporation itself.

Both mines and plants require air, storm water and well permits from the DNR. They must control fugitive dust, and crystalline silica is indirectly regulated as a particulate. The facilities also must show they aren't damaging wetlands and public waterways....

Another worry is that many mines and plants are moving into unincorporated townships with few building restrictions.


But until now nobody was talking about the issue of transport once the sand is extracted. It seems county roads, not just the Interstate, will need to be used by the sand trucks.

The matter of townships having inadequate infrastructure to handle the mine operations is pretty realistic if you've even been up in rural Wood and Chippewa Counties. Some of the back roads are barely paved, let alone sufficient for regular use by heavy trucks. I seem to remember many of the bridges (in the areas I'm familiar with) aren't heavy-truck-rated either.

The state needs to give the counties some support here. The highway commissioner from Wood County is doing his job, trying to keep his county's highways in good repair once extensive heavy mining traffic begins. It sounds like he's being proactive and appropriately aggressive. He needs some backup.

It also might be a good time to look into upgrading freight rail service to the area.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby pjbogart » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:51 pm

This also illustrates why we have graduated tax rates. The rich, particularly business owners, tend to use a greater portion of the commons. Joe Six Pack, driving to work every day does very little damage to the roads, yet Mike Millionaire owns a trucking company and feels somehow abused that he needs to pay more taxes than Joe. Mike pulls some strings, threatens to move his company, gets some tax concessions and ultimately sticks Joe with higher taxes to rebuild the roads that Mike disproportionately damaged.

Mike laughs all the way to the bank, convinces Joe that Democrats are trying to take away Joe's gun and Joe goes ahead and votes for the politicians that screwed him over by giving Mike a tax break.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby gargantua » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:20 pm

snoqueen wrote:http://www.jsonline.com/business/127666118.html

But until now nobody was talking about the issue of transport once the sand is extracted. It seems county roads, not just the Interstate, will need to be used by the sand trucks.

It also might be a good time to look into upgrading freight rail service to the area.


This is a very frequent, albeit seldom recognized, issue. It applies to many commodities. In many cases, such as logging, paper mills, and trash hauling, as well as agricultural products, the transport involves movement on county and local roads and bridges in order to reach the state and interstate highway systems. Industry argues that the heavier, wider, longer loads it can carry, the more profitable the enterprise is and the more likely it is that the jobs the activity provides will stay in the state.

State and local highway engineers and traffic officials are supposed to protect the infrastructure for everyone. That's what they are paid to do, so they often say "no" to excessively heavy/large loads, especially if there is high volume. Industry then has their lobbyists contact legislators and the Governor's office, and in no time at all the recalcitant safety officials are pushed into acceding to the wishes of industry. I worked in a government office that regulated trucking for awhile. That aspect of the work got real old, but that is how the system works. Some will argue that it is supposed to work that way, but I don't and am happy to no longer be a part of it.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby lukpac » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:34 pm

snoqueen wrote:It also might be a good time to look into upgrading freight rail service to the area.


That's happening around Barron, where a line that has been out of service for some time is being rebuilt for frac sand hauling.

http://www.news-shield.com/news/top_sto ... 963f4.html
http://www.news-shield.com/news/communi ... 963f4.html
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:47 pm

This is no small operation. From lukpac's first link:

Question: Opponents to the “inland port” (proposed in the town of Barron) list the following statistics:

• 50 to 100 trucks per hour will arrive to unload sand, and it will take 850 trucks to load one 170-car train.

• There will be at least three, 170-car trains loaded per week, which the local residents extrapolated to mean 2,550 truck deliveries per week.

• 12 rail cars will be filling at a time.

Are these numbers accurate?

Answer: We won’t comment on the numbers (for the inland port) because that is under the control of Procore Resources.

Typically, a frac sand train will consist of about 100 cars. The number of locomotives depends on many factors.


No way in hell a little, poor rural county can build roads for that kind of transport. About the only steady jobs in the area are working for the school district or plowing snow. A place like that couldn't scrape together enough money in a hundred years.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby Rich Schultz » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:28 am

"About the only steady jobs in the area are working for the school district or plowing snow."

And hauling sand.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:03 pm

Interesting point, the entity responsible for the maintenance of the road can is also the entity that can designate if the road is a class B road (with permanent weight restrictions) rather than a normal road.
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statut ... /349/II/15

Also found this which documents the process briefly, but is from 2003 and is probably somewhat dated.

Seems like the best choice for the county or township if the company doesn't want to pay for the damage they cause.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby Cornbread » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:23 pm

Quick comment on original link as i was winding down then:

But county guy says that the roads aren't built to handle the frequency and weight of sand hauling trucks (few are)

That seems weird as there is already sand 'mining' there, so any trucks on that road are the 24 ton, a 'normal load' for roads. The main limitation on county roads are bridges, so those limits are posted. If there are any weight restrictions on those bridges, then they can drive around to another one, but as is the case, sand mining has been around in WI for a very very very long time. We can thank the glaciers for that I guess.

snoqueen wrote:That's a Milw J-S article (from last year) explaining how the scale of the new and proposed sand mines in WI is far greater than any old-time sand-pit land usage.


And that means what?
Sand mining is a really clean form of mining, just buckets, vibrators and sieves. It is no more dirty than kids playing in a sandbox. I could say more, but, well, I'm a normal person and normal people don't trust leftists--they're too agenda driven....agenda at all costs (to others that is).

Both mines and plants require air, storm water and well permits from the DNR.


Which mean:

They must control fugitive dust, and crystalline silica is indirectly regulated as a particulate. The facilities also must show they aren't damaging wetlands and public waterways.


Corporation Snoqueen, that stuff is all addressed in the DNR permit. It's WHY the DNR permit is needed.

On a side note, the gegobic taconite mine (and all those jobs) were rejected because the idiot leftist dems (and one rino) wanted an open ended DNR approval process. But you and other leftists knew that, right? So getting actual approval could take years, or even decades. Sort of like a timeline for cleaning up madison's green lakes. :roll:
This is along the lines of BS the leftists rolled out with Gov Walker not wanting women to get equal pay. :lol:
You do know what that was about, right?

Another worry is that many mines and plants are moving into unincorporated townships with few building restrictions.

According to who? Who is worried again? And why?
(I'll make you think on this one, my little tax cheating corporation snoqueen).

But until now nobody was talking about the issue of transport once the sand is extracted.

already addressed. If there are normal semi trucks using the road, nothing different is required....yes, even 24 tons of frac sand weighs the same amount as 24 tons of corn, or 24 tons of logs, or 24 tons of obamacare regulations.

The matter of townships having inadequate infrastructure to handle the mine operations is pretty realistic if you've even been up in rural Wood and Chippewa Counties.

If there is inadequate infrastructure, then why would a business that relies on trucking/transportation move there?

Are these the "stupid" corporations? You must be confusing them with obama's 'green corporations' that rely on hundreds of millions of cash, then go bankrupt. No sno, these are actual, working corporations that make a profit and provide jobs for people, tax revenues for governments, and goods that people actually use......

It also might be a good time to look into upgrading freight rail service to the area.

Things in quantity like that are shipped via rail.
I guess the mining businesses and the rail businesses could buy land and build rail spurs.....but i wonder how long the building permitting process would take?

I'd guess eternity, with all the leftists filing lawsuit after lawsuit in the black hole called madison......
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:44 am

But, but, but, Where Are The Jobs Mr. Cornbread? And by "jobs" we mean the clean kind you can shuffle, collate, staple. Have you ever tried to staple sand, Mr. Cornbread? It just won't do. It's our Sand, our precious heritage and it's only going to hurt our friends, the Saudi's, who know how to treat their women right, you haven't seen them exploiting Lily Ledbetter lately have you? Sand is dirty, Mr. Cornbread, some studies claim it may be dirt, and we can't have dirt traveling down our roads, the roads President Obama built for us, that make all good things possible, and now you want to haul dirt on them? For shame Mr. Cornbread, thank God it's not oil!
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby jjoyce » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:07 am

The taxpayer appreciates you looking out for their interests, Rich.

How many jobs again? What kind of roads are they using?

Don't ask these simple questions... the answers might not fit in with your Scott-the-savior narrative.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby bdog » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:53 am

The Story of the Shibboleth

A shibboleth is a kind of linguistic password: A way of speaking (a pronunciation, or the use of a particular expression) that is used by one set of people to identify another person as a member, or a non-member, of a particular group. The group making the identfication has some kind of social power to set the standards for who belongs to their group: who is "in" and who is "out".

The purpose of a shibboleth is exclusionary as much as inclusionary: A person whose way of speaking violates a shibboleth is identified as an outsider and thereby excluded by the group. This phenomenon is part of the universal use of language for distinguishing social groups. It is also one example of a general phenomenon of observing a superficial characteristic of members of a group, such as a way of speaking, and judging that characteristic as 'good' or 'bad', depending on how much the observers like the people who have that characteristic.
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Re: local control, taxpayers and frac sand hauling

Postby rabble » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:15 am

Rich Schultz wrote:But, but, but, Where Are The Jobs Mr. Cornbread? And by "jobs" we mean the clean kind you can shuffle, collate, staple. Have you ever tried to staple sand, Mr. Cornbread? It just won't do. It's our Sand, our precious heritage and it's only going to hurt our friends, the Saudi's, who know how to treat their women right, you haven't seen them exploiting Lily Ledbetter lately have you? Sand is dirty, Mr. Cornbread, some studies claim it may be dirt, and we can't have dirt traveling down our roads, the roads President Obama built for us, that make all good things possible, and now you want to haul dirt on them? For shame Mr. Cornbread, thank God it's not oil!

Yeah. The jobs we want are the temporary kind that last as long as the sand does. And then when we're done we spend more money than we took in on the roads that have been pounded to rubble and the wells that are now contaminated.

THAT'S the kinda jobs we want around here, dammit! Something temporary and subsistence level, with a high cost over time that the employers can leave to us after they've packed up and moved on. Frack here frack now!
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