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Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby Meade » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:06 pm

bdog wrote:I.e., the same lesson Bill Lueders learned on the Bradley / Prosser dust-up.

Very true: "ligature"... "chokehold" -- keep your hoax-dar up and your confirmation bias down.

snoqueen wrote:Don't forget the real principle behind this whole ugly prank: the $7-million Capitol repairs principle.

Yes, but don't forget the irony that, although the final costs for repairs to the Capitol due to damage by the protesters came in at only about $270,000.00 (cheap), the cost of extra police protection for the "peaceful protesters" came to, according to the Associated Press, $8 million (not so cheap).
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby kurt_w » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:22 pm

Maggie wrote:The thing that bothers me the most about this whole thing is that these right-wing knobs wanted this story to be true...


Ugh. I'm afraid that's a failing that is all too common. When someone hates a particular group -- another party, another religion, another country, another race, whatever -- it's awfully easy to find oneself getting a kind of satisfaction from reports that one of "those" people has done something terrible.

I don't think it's that we really want the bad things to have happened; it's that something in our brains responds positively to information that confirms our existing beliefs.

So, during WWI, when people in the West encountered propaganda tales of German soldiers bayoneting women and children in Belgium, people latched on to those stories not because they hoped they were true, exactly, but because they triggered a primal sense of pleasure at the confirmation of one's existing worldview.

In other words, I guess I kind of understand why those "knobs" would latch on to this story and have trouble letting go. I wish it were some failing that's specific to right wingers, but I'm afraid it's probably more universal.
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby rabble » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:24 pm

Meade wrote: the cost of extra police protection for the "peaceful protesters" came to, according to the Associated Press, $8 million (not so cheap).

Yeah. Force officers who aren't really needed to work overtime watching over protestors who don't need the watching, purposely inflating the bill with completely unneeded costs, and blame it on the protestors.

They were thinking ahead on that one.
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby pjbogart » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:32 pm

kurt_w wrote:I don't think it's that we really want the bad things to have happened; it's that something in our brains responds positively to information that confirms our existing beliefs.


Very true, but I think it goes far beyond the kind of unfortunate incident (I speak as though it were some kind of accident) we're talking about here.

People love being told that they're right and they immediately latch on to any information that tends to show them that they're right. It's incredibly easy to reinforce a belief and incredibly hard to change one. Bludgeon's obsession with the Gallup polls and criticism of Nate Silver are an excellent and current example. If the roles were reversed and Nate Silver was touting Romney's strength and Gallup showing his weakness, Bludgeon's posting would do a 180.

I find myself falling into this trap as I look at swing State polling. Where Obama is up by two, I consider that a blue State. Where Romney is up by two, that's up for grabs (or within the margin of error).

I like good news, don't much care for bad news. Good news is true. Bad news needs to be verified. I think that's pretty much human nature.
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby lukpac » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:20 am

bdog wrote:I.e., the same lesson Bill Lueders learned on the Bradley / Prosser dust-up.


The dust-up...that actually occurred?
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby scratch » Wed Oct 31, 2012 9:05 am

lukpac wrote:
bdog wrote:I.e., the same lesson Bill Lueders learned on the Bradley / Prosser dust-up.

The dust-up...that actually occurred?


Don't bother dogBoy with facts-- what there is of his mind is made up.
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby jjoyce » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:06 pm

To compare the Prosser situation to Media Trackers' irresponsible regurgitation of fiction from a troubled partisan is a sure sign you're deep, deep inside the GOP message machine. Deep.

Read the Prosser story here: http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/artic ... icle=33921

I'd like to point out this part specifically:

Justice Prosser, contacted Friday afternoon by the Center, declined comment: “I have nothing to say about it.” He repeated this statement after the particulars of the story — including the allegation that there was physical contact between him and Bradley — were described. He did not confirm or deny any part of the reconstructed account.


(emphasis added)

Lueders and Wisconsin Public Radio reported that several sources said a physical altercation occurred, that Prosser had both hands around Bradley's neck and that details were "sketchy." All of those are just as true today as they were then. Lueders also reported that Prosser chose not to comment. Was that enough to go on? Without a doubt to anyone who is not an extreme partisan, yes.

Media Trackers and Daily Caller reported that Kyle Wood was beaten and verified with a police report to that effect. That's the end of the verified reporting on this case. The Daily Caller led with a statement that the race between Pocan and Lee has been contentious, attributing that opinion to nobody because nobody would have said that. Pocan is dominating the race and Lee has run a respectful and dignified campaign. The two sites also reported that Wood's car had been vandalized (as fact, not prefacing it with "Wood said") and produced no police report or photos confirming that. Media Trackers reported that Wood had received threatening text messages without bothering to actually look at the phone or attempting in any way to verify that the text messages existed, that they came from another phone and that the phone they came from belonged to Frank. All this despite the unbelievable nature of those texts.

Media Trackers pulled the post off their site, a move that indicates how proud they are of the work that went into writing it. My guess: They've been threatened with legal action and have so little to stand on that they have decided not to stand up at all. The Lueders report on Prosser and Bradley wasn't challenged at all, ever, by any of the involved parties.

An aside: I have met a few of the state supreme court justices, but Bill Lueders introduced me to Prosser when he was visiting the Isthmus office to meet with Bill. The same thing happened with Gableman. I wonder if Media Trackers has a similar record.
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby Meade » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:36 pm

Is it now an established fact that Prosser grabbed fellow Supreme Court Justice Bradley by the neck?
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby Kenneth Burns » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:10 pm

Meade wrote:Is it now an established fact that Prosser grabbed fellow Supreme Court Justice Bradley by the neck?

Does the story say it's an established fact?
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby Meade » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:25 pm

No. The story says: Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice David Prosser allegedly grabbed fellow Justice Ann Walsh Bradley around the neck in an argument in her chambers last week, according to several knowledgeable sources.

I'd like to know whether or not the "several knowledgeable sources" who "spoke on the condition that they not be named" have ever recanted their allegations which, I understand, after a police investigation, turned out to be factually incorrect.
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby jjoyce » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:27 pm

Meade: If you have an accusation to make about the Prosser story linked above, which you seem to be comparing to the made-up story about Kyle Wood that Media Trackers has removed (and now refuses to answer questions about), then make it.
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby scratch » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:34 pm

Meade wrote:No. The story says: Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice David Prosser allegedly grabbed fellow Justice Ann Walsh Bradley around the neck in an argument in her chambers last week, according to several knowledgeable sources.
I'd like to know whether or not the "several knowledgeable sources" who "spoke on the condition that they not be named" have ever recanted their allegations which, I understand, after a police investigation, turned out to be factually incorrect.


Fascinating, Larry. What does this have to do with this thread though? Other than your usual "Look! Over there!" when you're caught dishing out the bullshit.
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby jjoyce » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:42 pm

Meade wrote:I understand, after a police investigation, turned out to be factually incorrect.


Really? Do you have a link? The link I have is this one:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolit ... 63653.html

"Did my hands touch her neck, yes, I admit that. Did I try to touch her neck, no, absolutely not, it was a total reflex," Prosser said.


"Oh my God, I'm touching her neck," Prosser said he thought, adding later, "What does any self-respecting man do when suddenly that man finds that his hands, or part of his hands are on a woman's neck? Get them off the neck as soon as possible."


"I was shocked at what I saw," Abrahamson said, adding that Bradley "never, never, never touched him and I'm certain of that."

Justice Michael Gableman told detectives in a July 5 interview that Bradley "rushed" to Prosser and punched the air around his face. He described Bradley as being a little bit taller than Prosser and compared Bradley's stance with Prosser to a famous photo of then-Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson leaning over a shorter, cowed senator.


What are you trying to get at, Meade?
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby lukpac » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:43 pm

Meade wrote:No. The story says: Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice David Prosser allegedly grabbed fellow Justice Ann Walsh Bradley around the neck in an argument in her chambers last week, according to several knowledgeable sources.

I'd like to know whether or not the "several knowledgeable sources" who "spoke on the condition that they not be named" have ever recanted their allegations which, I understand, after a police investigation, turned out to be factually incorrect.


Are you saying that Prosser's hands had no contact with Bradley's neck? Are you saying there wasn't an argument?

Are you saying there's no difference between "the story was fabricated" and "some witnesses had a slightly different interpretation of an actual incident"?

Or are you just grasping at straws?
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Re: Is this [recanted story of an] attack a hate crime?

Postby jjoyce » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:33 pm

How the Kyle Wood hoax went viral: Self-proclaimed conservative watchdogs spurn reporting basics

After Wood recanted his stories, Sikma wrote a subsequent post noting that "individuals who know Wood verified the accuracy of his claims" but that the claims turned out to be untrue. But he took no responsibility for failing to check out Wood's sensational claims. "Media Trackers regrets that we were repeatedly lied to and misled. We regret that our readers were subject to the dishonest claims of a dishonest individual."

Critically, Sikma never asked for physical evidence that the texts were real or attempted to verify them with the alleged perpetrator.

"We can confirm that he never reached out to Phil or the campaign," says Dan McNally, Pocan's campaign manager.
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