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Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby rabble » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:52 pm

I kind of expected to see at least one post mention that while the gun nut celebration was going on, five people were injured by accidental gunfire at three gun shows across the country and one armed guard at a middle school forgot his gun in the bathroom.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby bdog » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:11 pm

Keep in mind our old police chief baked his in the oven.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby rabble » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:13 pm

Yep. All those are great arguments for why we need more guns in the schools, our houses, and just walking around the streets.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:01 pm

The mental health angle is running into a lot of questions and concerns from mental health professionals. For one thing, they say predicting who among their clients is going to commit gun violence would be close to impossible. For another, mental illness on the whole is a very uneven and weak predictor of violence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/healt ... .html?_r=0

from the link:

Alcohol and drug abuse are far more likely to result in violent behavior than mental illness by itself. In the National Institute of Mental Health’s E.C.A. study, for example, people with no mental disorder who abused alcohol or drugs were nearly seven times as likely as those without substance abuse to commit violent acts.


At the very least we need more data to determine where the risk lies -- data we may for the first time be able to analyze now that the president has ordered the CDC to assemble and work with it.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby bdog » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:17 pm

rabble wrote:Yep. All those are great arguments for why we need more guns in the schools, our houses, and just walking around the streets.

..and in the hands of Police chiefs
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby rabble » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:22 pm

Yeah, cops fuck up too. Therefore we need more guns.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby bdog » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:29 am

Geez Rabble you are one dumb son of a bitch.

Cops fuck up too, therefore we need to take their guns away too.

Sheesh.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby wack wack » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:18 am

snoqueen wrote:The mental health angle is running into a lot of questions and concerns from mental health professionals. For one thing, they say predicting who among their clients is going to commit gun violence would be close to impossible. For another, mental illness on the whole is a very uneven and weak predictor of violence.


To really address this, assessment should not be the responsibility of citizens' personal doctors. Nor should it be a, "here, take this form to as psychiatrist and have it filled out." To address mental health threats seriously, each and every gun owner should be required to be assessed by state and federally approved psychiatric assessors who are trained specifically in relevant areas such as anger management, depression, psychosis, etc. It needs to be a specific part of the weapon purchase process. Every time. Want to own 30 guns? Face 30 individual assessments.

Then, they need to err on the side of caution, each and every time. Yes, it can be difficult or impossible to predict violence, so the mere hint of it should be enough to shut the process down. For example, there is ample public evidence that Alex Jones is not stable enough to own firearms, no psychiatrist needed.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:15 am

wack wack wrote:To address mental health threats seriously, each and every gun owner should be required to be assessed by state and federally approved psychiatric assessors who are trained specifically in relevant areas such as anger management, depression, psychosis, etc. It needs to be a specific part of the weapon purchase process. Every time. Want to own 30 guns? Face 30 individual assessments.

Then, they need to err on the side of caution, each and every time. Yes, it can be difficult or impossible to predict violence, so the mere hint of it should be enough to shut the process down.
No. This kind of bullshit is exactly what we don't want.

What we want is to make affordable mental healthcare available to everybody and to have a national discussion to help remove the stigma associated with it so people who need it will get the help they deserve.

We most certainly do not want it to be some kind of program designed to "weed out the bad apples". That's awful. That would most likely make the problem worse, not better. wack wack -- how can you possibly believe that labeling people as "unfit to possess a firearm" will help alleviate their anti-societal tendencies?

I do not advocate in any way empowering mental healthcare professionals to become some kind of "violence police". That's ludicrous. The goal here should be to give everyone the mental healthcare appropriate to them, be that simple talk therapy or diagnosis and treatment of a more severe condition.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby wack wack » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:33 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:No. This kind of bullshit is exactly what we don't want.


Then tell the truth: you don't want to fix anything.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:What we want is to make affordable mental healthcare available to everybody and to have a national discussion to help remove the stigma associated with it so people who need it will get the help they deserve.


Then you're not going to fix anything.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:We most certainly do not want it to be some kind of program designed to "weed out the bad apples". That's awful. That would most likely make the problem worse, not better. wack wack -- how can you possibly believe that labeling people as "unfit to possess a firearm" will help alleviate their anti-societal tendencies?


Nothing will alleviate their anti-social tendencies.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I do not advocate in any way empowering mental healthcare professionals to become some kind of "violence police". That's ludicrous. The goal here should be to give everyone the mental healthcare appropriate to them, be that simple talk therapy or diagnosis and treatment of a more severe condition.


The goal here, in this conversation, is to address mental health issues as they relate to what appears to be a growing national HEALTH CRISIS.

You can keep lobbying for bigger/better/more of what we've always done, but it's not going to fix anything.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:46 am

wack wack wrote:You can keep lobbying for bigger/better/more of what we've always done, but it's not going to fix anything.
What we've already done? What are you talking about?

Is there a stigma associated with mental healthcare? Yes.
Is mental healthcare available to everyone who needs it? No.

That's what needs to be fixed. We have not already done either of those things. Not by a long shot.

Obviously, you don't believe mental healthcare can ever be effective, yet you want to establish those who practice it as some kind of experts who should make decisions about who gets weapons and who doesn't. That makes exactly zero sense.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby wack wack » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:08 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Obviously, you don't believe mental healthcare can ever be effective, yet you want to establish those who practice it as some kind of experts who should make decisions about who gets weapons and who doesn't. That makes exactly zero sense.


Obviously? I saw your comments about being cranky in another thread, perhaps that's disrupting your perception of things. I ABSOLUTELY believe in mental health care. I also have a realistic idea of what that means, and I am confident that offering elective mental health care to more anti-social people won't fix anything.

Believing that if we just expand mental health care to all, we'll naturally be able to catch the problems before they happen is Utopian thinking at it largest.

I believe strongly in expanding and addressing mental health care for all. I don't believe any of it will help the gun issues. If you want to address mental health issues as they relate to guns, you have to assess mental health issues specifically as they relate to guns.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:21 pm

wack wack wrote:Believing that if we just expand mental health care to all, we'll naturally be able to catch the problems before they happen is Utopian thinking at it largest.
I never said anything like this and I certainly don't believe it. As I also said elsewhere, I don't believe there's a damn thing we can do to stop all the crazy people from doing crazy things. There is no guaranteed way to prevent gun violence.
wack wack wrote:If you want to address mental health issues as they relate to guns, you have to assess mental health issues specifically as they relate to guns.
I guess maybe this is the sticking point. I don't believe there is any such thing as a mental health issue specifically related to guns. There are mental health issues and there are gun issues and sometimes there is overlap. Turning psychologists and psyhiatrists into some kind of police force/reporting agency will almost assuredly lead to worse healthcare, as that's not their job and it's not what they're trained to do. (Nor should it be.)

There is no way to screen people based on what they're going to do in the future. And I would hope no qualified healthcare professional with any respect for their profession or the science behind it would ever sign on for such a witch hunt.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby Meade » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:32 pm

wack wack wrote:no psychiatrist needed.

- Dr. Wack Wack

The doctor is... out.
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Re: Saturday's gun rally at the Capitol

Postby wack wack » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:40 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I guess maybe this is the sticking point. I don't believe there is any such thing as a mental health issue specifically related to guns. There are mental health issues and there are gun issues and sometimes there is overlap. Turning psychologists and psyhiatrists into some kind of police force/reporting agency will almost assuredly lead to worse healthcare, as that's not their job and it's not what they're trained to do. (Nor should it be.)


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I'm not looking for medical professionals to be "crazy cops"; I want to introduce impersonal assessment into the gun purchase process. Mental health professionals can be as manipulated as anybody by their patients. The fact that one must be adjudicated as mentally ill before having their gun rights challenged is woefully insufficient.

I agree that there are mental health issues, and there are gun issues; apparently unlike you, I believe that overlap must be addressed as it's own problem, directly and aggressively.

I'm curious to hear, however, exactly how injecting a mental health assessment into the firearm purchase process would lead to worse health care.
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