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Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:41 pm

HawkHead wrote:It seems that if not ONE representative is willing to put their name on the bill it shouldn't come to vote. Doesn't someone need to motion/sponsor to bring the bill to vote? It has been a long time since I have used Robert's Rules of Order.

Plenty of GOP legislators have sponsored (introduced) or co-sponsored the bills.

Assembly Bill 1

Senate Bill 1
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Zoti Bemba » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:08 pm

rabble wrote:Welllll.... not quite close enough.

Just because somebody has let sewage drain into the pool doesn't mean someone else in their neighborhood can't block someone who wants to come in, dig great big gaping holes all around the pool, and then leave.

Don't forget the sulfuric acid -- in the pool and also in the fish pond, along with whatever collects in the gaping holes.

And though "violation" sounds very scary, I'm wondering how common violations of the Clean Water Act are? I haven't seen this NYT report -- how many violators are there in Wisconsin, out of how many total treatment plants? If the Bad River Chippewa Tribe's plant is the top violator what are the next four? Is there a structural problem involved like Milwaukee's combined sewage/storm water system? What enforcement measures or mitigation agreements have been used with the top ten violators nationwide?

Poop is such fun to throw around, especially in the service of politics, that we tend to forget that it's all around us all the time and pretty darn common. We've been trying to get it under control since the dawn of civilization, and I expect we'll finally succeed sometime around the time the sun goes nova. Good news for people who like to argue for arguments' sake! Just don't start throwing sulfuric acid on each other, because that could really cause some damage.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby SombreroFallout » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:38 am

Zoti Bemba wrote:Is the problem with the mine heavy metals? I thought it was sulfides, which are a whole different order of pollutants than sewage runoffs, especially if your concern is wild rice beds.

Acid Mine Drainage (AMD) consists of heavy metals AND low pH levels (the H+), and in the case of pyrite (iron disulfide), sulphuric acid as well.

Fe3+ in this case.

HOWEVER: even in an iron mine, mine operators release a whole range of heavy metals, as copper, zinc, etc., etc. in the ore body and overburden also undergo a series of cascading reactions paralleling the equations defining that process for Fe (below).

So Acid Mine Drainage is most often a soup of heavy metals with multiple cascading chemical reactions occurring at different stages. And it is permanent. The reactions don't run out of fuel, and once started continue in anaerobic environments (i.e., underwater) using chemical energy to stoke their own fires, so to speak. Joseph Skulan posted a stellar explanation on facebook a week or so back.

The following oxidation and reduction reactions express the breakdown of pyrite that leads to acid mine drainage:

1. 2FeS2 + 7O2 + 2H2O -> 2FeSO4 + 2H2SO4

2. 2Fe2+ + 1/2 O2 + 2H+ -> 2Fe3+ + H2O

3. Fe3+ + 3H2O -> Fe(OH)3 + 3H+

4. FeS2 (s) + 15/4 O2 + 7/2 H2O <--> 4H+ + 2SO4- +Fe(OH)3 (s)
Last edited by SombreroFallout on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby SombreroFallout » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:47 am

Image
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Leroy Gates » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:53 am

If you were a cold sparkling stream
Like the one that you see in your dream
Wouldn't you be sad
If they all called you "Bad"
The problem is low self esteem
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Doright_Dudley » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:57 am

Is that photo from the Bad River Band wastewater treatment facility discharge?
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby kurt_w » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:05 am

SombreroFallout wrote:Image


Interesting photo. A little googling suggests that it's showing acid mine drainage in one of the tributaries of Peters Creek in western Pennsylvania.

Getting off-topic, there's another environmental (ecological) problem visible in that photo as well.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Michael Patrick » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:47 am

From an article in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel:

In a statement, she said:

"U.S. EPA and the Indian Health Service have been providing technical assistance to the Bad River Tribe to improve the operation of the Tribe's wastewater treatment plant and correct permit noncompliance.

"While still not in full compliance, discharge quality has improved and reporting violations have been resolved."



So they are working on it.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby SombreroFallout » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:18 am

kurt_w wrote:
SombreroFallout wrote:Image


Interesting photo. A little googling suggests that it's showing acid mine drainage in one of the tributaries of Peters Creek in western Pennsylvania.

Indeed it is.

While there are distinctions to be made with our site-specific situation, note well that this photo and analysis of Acid Mine Drainage is directly relevant in that it revolves around . ... iron disulfide = pyrite = exactly what we're concerned about in the G-Tac mine.

3. Fe3+ + 3H2O -> Fe(OH)3 + 3H+
Specifically, the text indicates the photo illustrates the above quoted equation, #3 in the process, in which Fe(OH)3 precipitates from solution, staining the rocks as 'yellow boy'.

Breakdown of pyrite in watersheds on both sides of the Penokee Hills will follow this chemical pathway. There'll be some variation based on the presence of other metals and other site differences. (Meaning it's possible the system could remain at another stage of the cascade of chemical reactions mediating the degradation of pyrite for long time-frames, before or after #3, speculating here a bit; or, it may be that all of those cascading reactions are happening at the same time, indefinitely. I'd have to dig a bit further.)

Note this site was mined 'in the early 1900s'--and the Acid Mine Drainage is still runnin' strong basically a century later. So in 100 years we can expect to see oxidized pyrite leaching into waterways north and south of the G-Tac mine -- with no solution in sight.
Last edited by SombreroFallout on Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby SombreroFallout » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:25 am

Doright_Dudley wrote:Is that photo from the Bad River Band wastewater treatment facility discharge?


It's from a G-Tac/Tom Tiffany - type project. The pic is of the iron disulfide--pyrite category of Acid Mine Drainage that will be generated by Bill Williams' mine on both sides of the Penokee Hills.

Where's your environmental outrage?
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby snoqueen » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:37 am

He thought he was making a funny comment.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby rabble » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:54 am

Really? I thought he was avoiding.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Doright_Dudley » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:23 pm

"In a 2012 series on water pollution, The New York Times reported on water polluters in all 50 states. In Wisconsin, the Bad River had the highest number of violations between 2004 and 2008 - 241. It was followed by the Red Cliff Band with 159. ."
Five of the top 10 violators were Wisconsin tribes
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/ ... 29261.html


Five of the top 10 violators were Wisconsin tribes
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby rabble » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:35 pm

That settles it! Shove a mine up their ass!
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby david cohen » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:38 pm

I violate the EPA's Clean Water Act weekly during the summer months with my personal effluent discharge into the waters of Lake Mendota. Sue me Dudley. D-Dog Double Dare Ya.
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