MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Wednesday, November 26, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 20.0° F  Fog/Mist
Collapse Photo Bar

Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:59 pm

kurt_w, your point is correct. That gun laws alone will not solve gun problems is not a valid argument against gun laws, all else equal. My statement:
But [gun problems are] probably not solvable with laws alone.
is at best an incomplete argument against gun control, at worst it is completely wrong.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:12 pm

kurt_w wrote:"Flogging"? Sorry, but that is the kind of hyperbole that makes people who aren't gun nuts roll their eyes. That really doesn't help your case.
Singapore does it.
In Singapore, the maximum penalty for illicit possession of firearms is up to 10 years prison and 6 strokes of the cane

I purposefully chose an eye-opening punishment because that's what I suspect might be necessary to actually bring about a reduction in the number of guns. Of course, I don't favor a reduction in the amount of guns, nor laws restricting them.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:43 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:Singapore does it.


You're going to compare us to Singapore?

ArturoBandini wrote:purposefully chose an eye-opening punishment because that's what I suspect might be necessary to actually bring about a reduction in the number of guns.


No. Your suspicions are ridiculous. A lot of people don't speed because they know they're going to get a ticket. A measly ticket keeps many people from speeding. Your logic is really fucked up sometimes.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5118
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:26 pm

Stebben84 wrote:A lot of people don't speed because they know they're going to get a ticket. A measly ticket keeps many people from speeding. Your logic is really fucked up sometimes.
Meanwhile a different (and also very large) lot of people do speed, do get tickets, and continue speeding anyway. Their actions result in hundreds if not thousands of deaths annually. I'm wondering if a few well-publicized roadside speeder beatdowns would help convince the incorrigible speeders to let off the gas.

Again, I don't think that would be a just policy, nor do I advocate it, but I suspect that it would be effective.

Moving back to the argument about guns in the US - gun crime persists in spite of numerous laws and penalties, some of which are already quite severe. Will adding another layer of bureaucratic gun laws (which is what has been proposed) make a significant dent in the situation? How would that effectiveness compare to an aggressive crackdown?
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:33 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:Will adding another layer of bureaucratic gun laws (which is what has been proposed) make a significant dent in the situation? How would that effectiveness compare to an aggressive crackdown?


So because laws don't stop everyone, then they're pointless? If new gun laws stop more people from committing crimes isn't that a good thing, or do we need to stop everyone/ No law does that. There are states with the death penalty(a little worse than flogging) yet that doesn't stop everyone.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5118
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:42 pm

Aside from the level of effectiveness is there no value in stopping the insane flood of assault rifles onto the market? The plan passed by Senate committee does not take away anyone's guns or flog anyone in the street. It simply stops the bleeding of millions and millions of these people killing machines from entering the market place. I don't need you need a study to know what happens when millions and millions more of these weapons are in circulation. More people die because of them. They aren't used for defense, they aren't used for hunting. More and more people aren't buying them., the same people are buying more. So... Benefit: less of these weapons on the street, less deaths because of them. Cost: A few gun nuts lose access to new toys, that they already have and the ones they do own are theirs, are legal, and just became more valuable.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7849
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby lukpac » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:48 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Stebben84 wrote:A lot of people don't speed because they know they're going to get a ticket. A measly ticket keeps many people from speeding. Your logic is really fucked up sometimes.
Meanwhile a different (and also very large) lot of people do speed, do get tickets, and continue speeding anyway. Their actions result in hundreds if not thousands of deaths annually.


So what? Is the fact that people still break the law a good reason to get rid of the law (or perhaps stop enforcement of it)?
lukpac
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:51 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby jjoyce » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:59 pm

C'mon now. Everybody speeds. I dare you to drive 55 on the beltline at 10 am.
jjoyce
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 12168
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:48 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby kurt_w » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:06 pm

Arturo, the fact that Singapore uses caning as a punishment for possession of a gun tells you a lot about Singapore but nothing about how gun laws work in the world outside the few square miles of Singapore. Singapore uses caning as a punishment for a whole host of crimes, from vandalism to overstaying your visa.

As for the US -- the idea is laughable. Not.Going.To.Happen. It's particularly ironic that you'd raise it in the context of gun control, because my (purely speculative) guess is that the population of people in the US who would be supportive of introducing flogging as a legal punishment would also be opposed to gun control.

Meanwhile, outside Singapore, many countries have gun control laws and don't have to resort to flogging to keep the rate of firearms crime near zero.

I'll give you points for creativity, but subtract points for one of the more absurd straw-man arguments we've seen on the Forum this past month.
kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5281
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby kurt_w » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:12 pm

lukpac wrote:So what? Is the fact that people still break the law a good reason to get rid of the law (or perhaps stop enforcement of it)?


I think Arturo's already agreed on that point. See the top of this page. He might argue that if you wanted to maximize the effectiveness of anti-speeding laws, you'd have to use a really draconian penalty ... something that no one in the US is interested in doing. Heck, most states can't even get the public to accept the use of photo radar for speed enforcement. If people think being photographed by a radar-equipped camera is unacceptable, I somehow can't see us adopting flogging any time soon.
kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5281
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:33 pm

Stebben84 wrote:So because laws don't stop everyone, then they're pointless? If new gun laws stop more people from committing crimes isn't that a good thing, or do we need to stop everyone
Laws can be worse than pointless, they can be net harmful. The proposed gun laws might prevent or dissuade a tiny number of people from committing a tiny fraction of gun crimes. Add that the the "helpful" column.

In the "harmful" column, this bill:
  • criminalizes voluntary nonviolent transactions between otherwise law-abiding individuals
  • incurs police enforcement costs and costs associated with imprisoning violators who may have committed no crime outside of the weapons violation (e.g. they hurt no one)
  • renders the property of millions of individuals un-transferable without a government permission slip, or un-transferable at all in the case of existing high-capacity magazines
  • eliminates or cripples industries and small businesses associated with nonviolent hobbies
  • infringes on rights explicitly granted by the Second Amendment
  • fails to define an objective set of rules distinguishing legal from illegal guns, thereby inviting confusion or legal trouble for those that don't fully understand the law (which is everyone, including the laws sponsors) - in other words, if a law requires 2,200 listed exemptions, what distinguishes it from just a list of things that Feinstein doesn't like?
  • exacerbates the existing partisan political divide while stirring up misinformation and hysteria about a trend that is already in decline for other reasons

And if you include some of the things that Chuck Schumer wants to put into law, you can add:
  • criminalizes many sorts of harmless behaviors like loaning a gun to a friend, or storing it at a friend's home
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:04 pm

fisticuffs wrote:Aside from the level of effectiveness is there no value in stopping the insane flood of assault rifles onto the market?
I think that the level of effectiveness is pretty much the only issue of importance here.
fisticuffs wrote:I don't need you need a study to know what happens when millions and millions more of these weapons are in circulation. More people die because of them.
Are you sure about that? Assault weapon sales in the past two decades have been rising (here is some data on AR-15 sales). Have more people been dying as the targets of assault rifles? This FBI dataset doesn't directly overlap the other, but if the trends of both can be extrapolated, then deaths due to rifles have been decreasing while assault rifle sales have soared. Care to revisit your position? At least you must admit that the situation is more complicated than what you've described.
fisticuffs wrote:They aren't used for defense, they aren't used for hunting.
It's the Second Amendment, it is a right that needs no conditions and warrants no explanation to anyone. Analogously, your speech is not restricted when you fail to demonstrate that it has a pre-approved purpose.
fisticuffs wrote:More and more people aren't buying them., the same people are buying more.
This may be true, but I don't see how it's an argument that more guns will end up on the streets. If the same set of people simply own more guns each, do they start carrying two guns at a time or something to add up to "more guns on the street"? For your hypothesis of "larger number of guns = larger number of gun crimes", you either need more people with guns or people with guns committing crimes more frequently. It doesn't work if the same number of people simply have more guns each and commit the same number of crimes they otherwise would have.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby lukpac » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:19 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:It's the Second Amendment, it is a right that needs no conditions and warrants no explanation to anyone.


Yet conditions are already placed on it.
lukpac
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:51 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby massimo » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:32 pm

This is incredibly sad on so many levels, but ON PAR I'm not so sure I like the idea of a well-armed PTSD population.

A marine, a gun, but no happy ending here
massimo
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1717
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:52 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Handgun Stop a Woman From Being Beaten

Postby kurt_w » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:27 pm

massimo wrote:This is incredibly sad on so many levels, but ON PAR I'm not so sure I like the idea of a well-armed PTSD population.

A marine, a gun, but no happy ending here

Ugh. Yes, that's just awful.

And I'm sure that Sandi will somehow manage to maintain that (a) the happy gun story in the OP is reason to oppose gun control laws, and (b) the sad gun story massimo links to is just an isolated, unfortunate incident and shouldn't be used as a reason to support gun control laws.
kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5281
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Local Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar