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Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby mrak » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:37 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Sandi wrote:... a one way wall.
This one always cracks me up to no end. (And if I'm not mistaken, this was the very first argument I ever had with Flanders here on TDPF.) What the fuck is a "one way wall", Sandi? Again, your mind never ceases to amaze me.

Don't be so hasty, Wags.

I'm already looking forward to calling my home improvement contractor on Monday and asking him for an estimate for building a "one way wall".

Sounds much more energy efficient than using the door.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby rabble » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:43 pm

No Gideon's bibles?

Where are the hookers supposed to put their phone numbers?
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:46 pm

mrak wrote:I'm already looking forward to calling my home improvement contractor on Monday and asking him for an estimate for building a "one way wall".

Sounds much more energy efficient than using the door.
Just make sure you get it installed the right way.

Personally, I'm holding out for one of them funky new three-way doors I've been hearing about. You can go in, you can go out, and you can get down.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Detritus » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:49 pm

One popular tactic of opponents of church/state separation is to pretend to accept that separation exists, but then to argue that separation of church and state only works one way: the state is prevented from interfering with churches or religious belief but churches are not prevented from interfering with the government.

The source, http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstatemyths/a/OneWayWallSeparation.htm, goes on to describe this position as "clearly absurd," which explains why it appeals to Sandi.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:35 pm

Sandi wrote:I agree totally with Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist. However it has been widely mis-interpreted, even by the courts.
I finally had a chance to read through this entire link. I encourage everyone to do so -- it's pretty fascinating. But I'll be damned if I found anything in it that supports Sandi's bizarro assertions or position. Care to elaborate, Sandi? Maybe point out the relevant passage(s)?

Sandi wrote:Why else would the 10 Commandments be allowed in the Supreme Court? Why else would Congress sessions commence with a prayer? Why else would Presidents be sworn in with an oath on the bible?
I've already addressed the first question here. As for the second, it's a fucking travesty that government sessions commence with prayers. And ending such nonsense is exactly the kind of fight I think groups like FFRF should be mounting, not this silly Bibles-in-hotels nonsense. As for the last point, at least two Presidents -- John Quincy Adams and LBJ -- weren't sworn in on Bibles. Were they therefore not really President?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_of ... _of_Bibles
I could further quibble that not all Bibles are the same -- but the fact is, the oath would seem to be merely a formality anyway, and one with no strict tradition that can be traced back through all the Presidents. If you keep scrolling down from the above link, you'll find a list of "Oath mishaps" where the language was botched (or the Bible was dropped!), some examples of Presidents retaking the oath for a variety of reasons, and then a long section on the use (or not) of the phrase, "So help me God" (which again, has no business in anything related to our government.) The notion that an oath of office is anything but an empty gesture seems pretty quaint to me in the 21st century anyway. If I was asked to swear on the Bible, I'd be perfectly willing to do so. What does that prove?
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:52 pm

More nonsense. And again, a much bigger travesty than Bibles in hotels rooms.
Apparently, becoming a citizen of the U.S. requires you to abandon your freedom of and from religion.
http://www.richarddawkins.net/foundatio ... tizenship#
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby peripat » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:30 pm

Travesty indeed, but you don't start with the big stuff, rather you start with removing bibles from hotel rooms which is considerably less direct and gives everyone something to think about. When you start with 'under god', or whatever, you give some offense to every individual who professes to follow one of the monotheistic religions. Starting small works.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Sandi » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:33 pm

And maybe when all that is done, you can have all Christians deported, or put in concentration camps.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby HawkHead » Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:42 pm

Sandi wrote:And maybe when all that is done, you can have all Christians deported, or put in concentration camps.


Yes because taking bibles out of hotels and not starting a meeting with a prayer are the exact same as deporting or rounding up Christians.

I am Christian and I completely agree with removing religious artifacts from public spaces unless all groups are allowed to express their beliefs, religious or non-religious.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:03 pm

I bet Sandi would be whistling another tune if the Satanic Bible was placed in government owned rooms.

On a related issue, do the Pastafarians have their own holy book? If so, it should be a cookbook. I hope it contains a recipe for a hamburger made from ground bison meat served along with squid ink rotini. I call it buffalo burger, dreadlock pasta.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:25 pm

Sandi --
Are there any states which discriminate against Christians in their constitutions?
Because there are seven which prohibit atheists from holding office.
Do you feel that is just? Do you feel that is upholding the spirit of the 1st Amendment?

The notion that Christians might be persecuted by anyone else is exactly the opposite of reality.
Last edited by Prof. Wagstaff on Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Sandi » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:21 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I bet Sandi would be whistling another tune if the Satanic Bible was placed in government owned rooms.


No, it is ok with me if they place Bibles, Korans, Satanic Bibles, or any other books in rooms: government owned or otherwise.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby david cohen » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:30 pm

Sandi wrote:And maybe when all that is done, you can have all Christians deported, or put in concentration camps.



Listen you old bat, when someone actually rounds up and slaughters YOUR relatives because of their religion, we'll talk. Until then, take your Alzheimers meds and STFU.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby Igor » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:02 pm

Well, it is pretty clear that most people seem to feel that Thomas Jefferson's feelings on the 1st amendment are the definitive word. Let's assume this is the case.

Jefferson often attended church services held in the capitol building. He did not have a problem with this situation because the services were not compulsory. So clearly, voluntary religious services in a governmental building are permitted. Maybe that knowledge can help triangulate these sorts of situations and determine what the founders intent would have been in this situation.
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Re: Viva Freedom From Religion Foundation!

Postby manoletters » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:52 pm

Sandi wrote:
manoletters wrote:...the First Amendment's Separation Clause makes it bloody well clear that these bibles had no place at the Lowell Center.


There is no "Separation Clause" in the First Amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

What part of "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" don't you understand?

You're right, Sandi, to the limited extent that I should have written: "Establishment Clause," rather that "Separation Clause." I regret the error, and have changed my original wording accordingly. Still, I object to the automatic proposal of what I consider a religious test in American courtrooms, as in "Do you swear to tell the truth... so help you GOD?" "In God We Trust" should be removed from the currency as well. I'm in agreement with those who found the Ten Commandments on that Alabama courthouse wall a much more serious violation than Gideon bibles in public drawers. And while we're on this hot topic, I'll point out that when a president is inaugurated, he/she shouldn't use the bible or say "...so help me God." But I sure would be intrigued/appalled to witness the outrage break out in the REAL America we inhabit, if Christian folks found Satanic literature in their hotel rooms, public or private. It's going to be interesting (to say the least) to see whether those Satanists down in Oklahoma, of all places, are successful in constructing that statue of "The Devil."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pitol.html

Generally speaking, I applaud this additional FFRF victory for separation of religion from the state, and continue to support their efforts.
Last edited by manoletters on Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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