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What is up with King Street Lately?

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?

Should Club Majestic be closed or punished?

Yes
22
52%
No
20
48%
 
Total votes : 42

Postby dtray2064 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:33 pm

dave esmond wrote:
spanky wrote:
Maybe we need some help from Chicago or New York cops.


Ah yes. The NYPD is rather famous for being adept at relating to minority individuals. They use such diplomatic tactics as excessive deadlee force, plungers, night sticks...
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Postby dtray2064 » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:45 pm

juanton wrote:My suggestion for solving the problem: drop the thug inspired hip hop.


Herein is part of the reason this thread is filled with such misrepresentation and "subtle racism." People are blaming alcohol, clothing, black people, young people, hip-hop, police, security... it's bouncing back and forth. A combination of factors is clearly at work to create these negative situations. HOWEVER, those of you who blame "the hip-hop," namely Juanton, are not nearly familiar enough with hip-hop to be making such bold demands. "Thug-inspired" hip-hop is actually "corporate-inspired thug hip-hop." If you have to draw such labels, it's difficult for me to <i>not</i> think that a group of young black males in mass makes you very uncomfortable. Ironically enough, I was performing the night of the shooting. I witnessed the entire thing, gunshot and all. Not two hours prior was I playing hip-hop, hip-hop that made reference to violence, without incident (in front of a hip-hop crowd, black, white, so and so forth). I'm not proposing any solutions. Shutting down the street, increasing officers, getting rid of the black people-- these are all really short-sighted and stupid solutions. Brainstorming ways to make the Majestic pay also ignore larger social problems. This is what Foundation was talking about earlier. If nobody understands why violence occurs among young minorities (a category into which I fall) outside of clubs, which none of you clearly do judging from the drawn-out and hostile pontifications in this forum, no myopically-formulated solution proposed in this thread will have a profound effect on the city, state or country. I'll save whatever views I have on the matter at fear of having my own experiences be labeled "bleeding heart" or "angry minority."


Now redraw your pointer fingers and argue away.
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Postby Peanutbutter » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:51 pm

jjoyce wrote:
spanky wrote:Tax-paying citizens are part of the after-bar "element".


Actually, I think the problem is that they're not. The people in this city most likely to be out at 2:30 are college students or other young people who rent, rather than own, and are transient residents of the city, if they even live in Madison.


I had no idea that rental properties are exempt from property taxes.
I also had no idea that "transient residents" are exempt from paying sales tax and state income tax.

That is good information to know.
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Postby juanton » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:56 pm

You make a lot of assumptions about me based on very little knowledge. I'd say you're guilty of type casting as well.

I really enjoyed being called a spic as a young kid. I also loved being called wet back because I have a last name some people can't pronounce. Now keep pontificating about our pontifications from your one sided, I know everything attitude.

I feel ultra comfortable loading my gear out of the King Club and wading through the crowd of people to my car. I have seen the crowds. I didn't get any trouble and wasn't expecting any trouble. I never once said I was afraid of shit.

So before you go calling me a racist, re read your post and it's various stereotypical attacks on white folks. And please point out exact quotes by Juanton where I mention anything that seems racist. If I am guilty of anything, it's not being as knowledgeable about the different styles of Hip Hop as you.

I hope this situation gets worked out for everyone. This continuous racist you, racist me, white folks don't understand anything crap ain't working.

Juanton
Last edited by juanton on Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby dave esmond » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:03 pm

dtray2064 wrote:Ah yes. The NYPD is rather famous for being adept at relating to minority individuals. They use such diplomatic tactics as excessive deadlee force, plungers, night sticks...



Once again, let's not judge a whole tree by a few VERY bad apples.

I ended up in the middle of the protest over the killing of Amadou Diallo in NYC. I can't imagine a more anti-cop mass of people. And yet the NYC cops on duty that day mananged a level of crowd control that resulted in no violence, no riots, no fires, nothing but an angry protest.


I figure those men and women might have a thing or two to teach Madison about crowd control.


I'll save whatever views I have on the matter at fear of having my own experiences be labeled "bleeding heart" or "angry minority."


I hope for one you do share 'em. Spanky and I may getting all chesty with each other here, but I bet (s)he, Juanton, you and I all pretty much want the same thing in the end. A safe as possible city for everyone.



I do have a hard time imaginng Juanton as a racist tho'.
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Postby spanky » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:11 pm

dtray2064 wrote:
spanky wrote:
Maybe we need some help from Chicago or New York cops.


Ah yes. The NYPD is rather famous for being adept at relating to minority individuals. They use such diplomatic tactics as excessive deadlee force, plungers, night sticks...


Hey, I did NOT say that!
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Postby dave esmond » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:16 pm

spanky wrote:
dtray2064 wrote:
spanky wrote:
Maybe we need some help from Chicago or New York cops.


Ah yes. The NYPD is rather famous for being adept at relating to minority individuals. They use such diplomatic tactics as excessive deadlee force, plungers, night sticks...


Hey, I did NOT say that!


Yeah, don't strap my shit on Spankys back. Sorry Spanky.


I'm done. This is just gonna get uglier I'm afraid. Or I'm gonna look stupider. Or something not good. I'm sick of arguing with people who I bet want the same big picture things I do anyway.

I'll meet ya for a drink sometime tho' Spank. I bet we really do agree more then we seem to here. After all you've got good taste in music.
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Postby spanky » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:23 pm

dave esmond wrote:
spanky wrote:
dtray2064 wrote:
spanky wrote:
Maybe we need some help from Chicago or New York cops.


Ah yes. The NYPD is rather famous for being adept at relating to minority individuals. They use such diplomatic tactics as excessive deadlee force, plungers, night sticks...


Hey, I did NOT say that!


Yeah, don't strap my shit on Spankys back. Sorry Spanky.


I'm done. This is just gonna get uglier I'm afraid. Or I'm gonna look stupider. Or something not good. I'm sick of arguing with people who I bet want the same big picture things I do anyway.

I'll meet ya for a drink sometime tho' Spank. I bet we really do agree more then we seem to here. After all you've got good taste in music.


Yeah, i'm out too. As awesome as the forum can be this ain't gonna get solved here.
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Postby supaunknown » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:44 pm

dtray2064 wrote: Ironically enough, I was performing the night of the shooting. I witnessed the entire thing, gunshot and all. Not two hours prior was I playing hip-hop, hip-hop that made reference to violence, without incident (in front of a hip-hop crowd, black, white, so and so forth).

That is ironic. :shock:
dtray2064 wrote:I'm not proposing any solutions.

That's fer sure. You're just poppin' in again to remind everyone how racist they are. Mission accomplished.
dtray2064 wrote:Shutting down the street, increasing officers, getting rid of the black people-- these are all really short-sighted and stupid solutions. Brainstorming ways to make the Majestic pay also ignore larger social problems.

dtray2064 wrote:I'll save whatever views I have on the matter at fear of having my own experiences be labeled "bleeding heart" or "angry minority."

Blah, blah, blah. You'd think somebody in the heart of the mix would have something worthwhile to suggest ...
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Enough is Enough!

Postby madisonsummer » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:34 pm

dave esmond wrote:
spanky wrote:Actually, the Majestic is denying it, perhaps you haven't read the paper.


Article please. I see them asking for help. I don't see 'em denying they have no responsibility.

at the same time I read the reports in the paper from Friday night. They were flat out wrong. Were you down there at 2:20 am?


As for an article, read the notes from the community meeting from last night on TDP main page.

I agree with Dave also in his last entry (not continuing to post due to racist fights), I think that this forum has taken an ugly turn, I posted it just to solve the problem and let people talk about the problem, not the people, not the music, I had my view at the start, but I feel after reading all of this and the notes from the meeting last night (8/7), I think that the club is part responsible, the police need to help out, but need assistance from the club that is voluntary, not forced, and for people that want the club to stay to step up and tell those doing wrong, to knock the shit off. If you want the club, stand by it, stop the ones who don't care about the club, the city, the citizens, or the music. I will continue to watch and see if a resolution comes out of this forum, but only participate if it is about the reason it was started, to make king street safe again for everyone!
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Postby eastside » Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:51 pm

Do you worry about the KK's clientele? What about the clientle of the Aliant Energy Centers'? What about the library? Have those establishments taklen 100% responsibility like you want the Majestic to take? What specificly do you want the Majestic to say or do?

I care about the shooting and stabbings also. I'm just not ready to blame anyone other then the people who did it. The Majestic could go away today and the PEOPLE doing the shooting and stabbing would go somewhere else. Or do you believe they'd be peacefull church goers if the Majestic just went away?


The primary reason I don't care about the KK is because I don't go there, or near there, on most nights. Are they as culpable as the Majestic? Possibly, but since I don't go anywhere near Langdon Street, for fear of what I might catch, it really doesn't have any impact on my life. I also haven't been near the Aliant Energy Center in years, so it really doesn't get my attention.

If you think there is going to be an automatic displacement issue if the Majestic goes away, you haven't really studied crime. It's not like people have a plan to shoot or stab someone regardless of context. "Darn, I can't stab someone here so I'll have to find someplace else to get my stabbing fix." There aren't a finite number of stabbings that just have to be located.

The people that commit crimes are certainly more culpable than the people who create a hightened probability of crime. It doesn't mean you can't have criticisms of both.

If a person in encouraged to go home, rather than a place where crime is easier, the possibility of crime goes down.
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Postby eastside » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:01 am

How about......some white people in Madison seem uncomfortable with the way some black people interact with each other. And that I think this uncomfortableness seems to result in a different reaction to events that take place depending on the race of the noviolent crowd that surrounds an event.

My for examples?

Stabbing outside KK. Nothing in the paper.

The stabbing last weekend. Headline reads, "Violence Rocks King Street Again". The first line fo the article reads. "For the second weekend in a row, chaos and violence erupted at bar time in the 100 block of King Street, where police dispersed a large crowd amid several fights and disturbances including a stabbing." What I saw with my own eyes couldn't be called "chaos", it was large group of mostly black people who were hanging out and talking loudly. No violence, not "several fights". All I can go on is what I saw, and how it was reported.


The stabbing outside the KK certainly should have made the paper. As far as race goes, there were always a mix of races at my shows. That's the way it should be. Lot's of hip hop shows have gone out in Madison without a hitch.

500 people on the street at bar time is a problem, regardless of race. It should be discouraged and I think the club can do it effectively, as most clubs do.
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Postby eastside » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:03 am

@wood wrote:Fear will ruin this country. So many are afraid- owners, patrons, citizens, and the press is playing it up. Alders, who ride with the wind, are tired of getting phone calls- eventually they just cave in so the phone calls stop. If you haven't been there, haven't had a great time dancing to hip hop beats, or just like to pile on when it's blacks, then you don't know what you're talking about. You're spoonfed by the media and are shackled by your latent intolerant fear. Some might call it racism, but before racism, there is fear.

The police, bar owners, and community are not being proactive. Here is an opportunity for learning and making bridges between the black and non-black communities. It's easy to blame the music- it isn't the problem.

Patrons of hip-hop shows are about to lose what is probably the best entertainment offering around- they should care and be involved in preserving it. The community should encourage this, and support leaders in the black community to overcome the violent element, and work with those in the non-black community to overcome the fear of the young black male.


Good points.
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Postby eastside » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:06 am

Once again, let's not judge a whole tree by a few VERY bad apples.

I ended up in the middle of the protest over the killing of Amadou Diallo in NYC. I can't imagine a more anti-cop mass of people. And yet the NYC cops on duty that day mananged a level of crowd control that resulted in no violence, no riots, no fires, nothing but an angry protest.


I figure those men and women might have a thing or two to teach Madison about crowd control.


Interesting points all around.
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Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:05 am

eastside wrote:Stabbing outside KK. Nothing in the paper.
...

The stabbing outside the KK certainly should have made the paper.

It did make the paper. I read about it in a short article in the WSJ.
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