MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Wednesday, November 26, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 20.0° F  Fog/Mist
Collapse Photo Bar

New Lien Rd Roundabout

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby snoqueen » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:27 pm

Some drivers just don't feel the need to maintain a single lane or use the proper lane. In roundabouts this is often demonstrated by "straightening the curve"


Thanks, that was what I was trying to describe.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby fisticuffs » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:28 pm

Some drivers just don't feel the need to maintain a single lane or use the proper lane. In roundabouts this is often demonstrated by "straightening the curve"


They need to get ticketed.
fisticuffs
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 7849
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:49 pm
Location: Slightly outside of Madison

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby lukpac » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:31 pm

fisticuffs wrote:There shouldn't be anyone in the way when he needs to cross that lane. ALL Lanes should have yielded to the left. Anyone who entered with green guy on his right would have already left the roundabout


This.

Because of "yield upon entering", the only time another car will be next to you is when you both enter together. In that case, the yellow (outside) car can only go right or straight, never left, and thus you never cross each other. Cars in the outside lane that want to cross your path (i.e., entering from the right) will always be behind you, because they have to yield upon entering the roundabout.

snoqueen wrote:But all lanes don't yield the way they should, resulting in the wrecks shown by the data.


Saying "all lanes" is really confusing matters. Traffic going in yields to traffic already inside, period, regardless of what lane they are in. Follow that, follow the signs (and keep moving once inside) and there won't be problems.
lukpac
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:51 pm
Location: Madison

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby jman111 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:36 pm

The one legitimate confusion, in my opinion, is the need to yield to a car in the inner (left) lane when entering the outer (right) lane. It's not exactly intuitive, but it is necessary. I cannot think of another traffic situation that requires this (seemingly unnecessary) yield.
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:33 pm

snoqueen wrote:Could improvements be engineered to make it safer?


You can't fix stupid. Nothing needs to be done except education. From the very first time to the hundredth time I used this and every other roundabout, I've never had a problem, never been confused, and never wished it wasn't there. They're new and I guess people are afraid of change or just can't figure change out. It also doesn't help that Madison drivers suck.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5118
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby snoqueen » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:24 pm

The one legitimate confusion, in my opinion, is the need to yield to a car in the inner (left) lane when entering the outer (right) lane. It's not exactly intuitive, but it is necessary. I cannot think of another traffic situation that requires this (seemingly unnecessary) yield.


You're probably correct here, but how can a driver A yield to a car on the inner (left) lane if driver A is not going into the inner (left) lane?

I suppose you mean Driver A is expected to wait for the car in the inner (left) lane to go past even if Driver A is only using the outer (right) lane.

If Driver A did so, it would make it much easier for the person in the inner (left) lane to leave that lane, cross in front of Driver A's car, and exit.

That would prevent the crashes I am trying to describe, assuming everyone was going the same speed so the person in the inner (left) lane is never overtaken by Driver A, whose path is longer due to having a larger radius.

But as you said, it's a legitimate confusion because most people consider yielding to mean letting the other party have the right of way. In this case the two parties aren't even using the same lane. Entering drivers likely don't think the inner-lane cars are part of what they're supposed to yield to, given that they're planning to stay only in the outer lane.

I can only imagine all the angry honking Driver A is going to have to listen to while he waits for both roundabout lanes to be clear so he can enter the outer lane. Which is more dangerous: lane violations, or enraged drivers behind you trying to make up time by passing everybody once they get their turn on the roundabout?

I expect the worst from Madison drivers -- maybe I shouldn't.

And bad driving is no reason to quit building roundabouts if they save time and are safer, but bad driving makes them the site of lots of crashes.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby jman111 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:44 pm

Yep, I agree that "yield" is not clear here.
But there are certainly situations in which your Driver A must wait for traffic in left (inner) lane to pass in order to safely enter the roundabout (and prevent the possibility of collision). I agree that this (Driver A failing to wait for the car in the left lane to pass) is probably a cause of many accidents.
What I have noticed, however, is that many roundabouts are actually engineered to avoid the likelihood of this problem with the use of combinations of single and double lanes.
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby snoqueen » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:48 pm

Thanks. I was getting tired of being the class dummy here, because I thought I had a valid point.

Enough.

At least we aren't wondering what about the gun.
Last edited by snoqueen on Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby Detritus » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:50 pm

snoqueen wrote:At least we aren't wondering what about the gun.

What about the gun? Drive A has it, obviously.
Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2513
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby jman111 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:54 pm

jman111 wrote:But there are certainly situations in which your Driver A must wait for traffic in left (inner) lane to pass in order to safely enter the roundabout (and prevent the possibility of collision).

I should clarify that I have only seen this problem in roundabout diagrams. I can't confirm that this problem actually exists in any of Madison's roundabouts, due to the engineering I've mentioned.
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby lukpac » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:46 pm

snoqueen wrote:But as you said, it's a legitimate confusion because most people consider yielding to mean letting the other party have the right of way. In this case the two parties aren't even using the same lane. Entering drivers likely don't think the inner-lane cars are part of what they're supposed to yield to, given that they're planning to stay only in the outer lane.


Why would entering drivers think that? Unless the entering driver was turning right, they would have to assume that they would be crossing the path of the driver already in the roundabout.

Again, you're completely over-thinking things. Traffic entering yields to traffic already inside. Period. While I can't be certain, I believe some of the local roundabouts actually did have signs to that affect for a while (something like "yield to traffic in circle").

snoqueen wrote:I can only imagine all the angry honking Driver A is going to have to listen to while he waits for both roundabout lanes to be clear so he can enter the outer lane. Which is more dangerous: lane violations, or enraged drivers behind you trying to make up time by passing everybody once they get their turn on the roundabout?


I guess fuel your imagination a bit; I've never experienced this. Cars have to stop and wait all the time.
lukpac
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:51 pm
Location: Madison

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby snoqueen » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:08 pm

Why would entering drivers think that? Unless the entering driver was turning right, they would have to assume that they would be crossing the path of the driver already in the roundabout.


This is a false assumption. Look at the diagrams I linked earlier. An entering driver (red line or green line) theoretically would never cross the path of a driver already in the roundabout if everybody does what they're supposed to (at least as long as nobody in the right lane rushes past someone in the left lane who's trying to get to an exit -- the big if).

If your entering driver was entering the inner lane, he would enter behind whatever driver was already in it. Since they're actually all driving in a circle who's behind whom is relative, but the entering driver is expected to let everyone on his left go first. Therefore the entering driver goes last, crossing nobody's path since they've already gone by.

If the entering driver is entering the outer lane, he has to wait for everybody in the outer lane (and according to jman's reasoning earlier, he's got to wait for everybody in the inner lane as well). So the entering driver goes last, once again, and crosses nobody's path.

In either case, everybody else is basically crossing HIS path while he is stopped.

Traffic entering yields to traffic already inside.


Yep.

We seem to agree, so how did you arrive at the quote boxed at the top of this post?

No wonder these things are confusing -- we can't even DESCRIBE them to each other.
Last edited by snoqueen on Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby lukpac » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:13 pm

snoqueen wrote:This is a false assumption. Look at the diagrams I linked earlier. An entering driver would never cross the path of a driver already in the roundabout, if everybody does what they're supposed to.


If a driver is going west to east (straight through) in the inner lane, while another driver is about to go south to north (straight through) in the outer lane, yes the entering driver (going south to north) would cross the path of the driver already in the roundabout if they (the entering driver) did not yield.
lukpac
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:51 pm
Location: Madison

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby snoqueen » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:22 pm

But I thought we all agreed he (Mr. South-to-North) has to yield to someone coming from his left. That's the whole point of the roundabout, isn't it? Rule #1, yield to anybody coming from the left?

And if everyone does what they should, nobody's paths cross. (If)

Are we confusing each other with different conceptions of what's supposed to happen, or with some verbal disconnect? This is absurd.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby lukpac » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:27 pm

snoqueen wrote:But I thought we all agreed he (Mr. South-to-North) has to yield to someone coming from his left. That's the whole point of the roundabout, isn't it? Rule #1, yield to anybody coming from the left?


I was responding to this:

lukpac wrote:
snoqueen wrote:But as you said, it's a legitimate confusion because most people consider yielding to mean letting the other party have the right of way. In this case the two parties aren't even using the same lane. Entering drivers likely don't think the inner-lane cars are part of what they're supposed to yield to, given that they're planning to stay only in the outer lane.


Why would entering drivers think that? Unless the entering driver was turning right, they would have to assume that they would be crossing the path of the driver already in the roundabout.


To be clear, you were suggesting the two drivers weren't using the same lane. I pointed out that depending on the movement, they would in fact cross, and hence the need to yield.
lukpac
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3362
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:51 pm
Location: Madison

PreviousNext

Return to Town Vibe

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar