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New Lien Rd Roundabout

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?

Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby lukpac » Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:59 pm

snoqueen wrote:I'm one that hates roundabouts, and if that makes me an old fart so be it.


You're an old fart.

snoqueen wrote:What is the inner lane for?

Nobody in their right mind would drive anywhere but the outer lane because if you go on the inner one, no one will let you merge outward and you'll be stuck going around and around the dumb thing because you'll miss your turnoff. This has happened to me.

But the outer lane is full of people rushing at you from your right, so you really can't drive comfortably there either. You're always slowing way way down to let a stream of cars merge, even though supposedly they're supposed to yield to traffic already in the circle. Of course they don't.

So where do you drive?

I don't get why people like these things -- the best they do is make for softer crashes. I'll go miles out of my way to avoid them. Now that I know about the Lien Road one, I'll use E. Wash.


snoqueen wrote:OK, I did the Google thing and found a four-point set of instructions on the WisDOT page. Rule two is this:

Stay in your lane; do not change lanes.


Here's a rule on the order of "wash, rinse, repeat" on your shampoo bottle. If you stay in your lane, and you are using the inside lane (the recommended way of going three-quarters of the way around the circle before exiting, the equivalent of a right turn-- see helpful diagram previously posted) YOU CANNOT LEAVE THE ROUNDABOUT WITHOUT BREAKING THE ABOVE RULE. And if you are using the roundabout during a busy part of the day, nobody's gonna let you merge outward. This is one of those times a 1987 Buick is your vehicle of choice. Why let somebody mess up your cute little Mini Cooper?

Of course, nobody is in the sky watching, so the sensible solution is do everything from the outer lane and be super-super careful not to get merged into. I agree, a sideswipe crash is better than a head-on, but who the hell wants to get their car totaled?


First of all, your "solution" (just do everything from the "outer lane") is 100% wrong. It is likely doing that would lead to *more* accidents. If you go into the roundabout with a car to your left and they are planning to go straight through but you are planning to go left, you'll hit them, and it will be your fault, not theirs.

Second...stop thinking about "inner" and "outer" and just read the signs. The three roundabouts I'm aware of on the east side are all clearly marked. I'd actually argue all of the talk here is counterintuitive: just read the signs. And when going in to the roundabout, yield to traffic inside it. It doesn't matter what lane it is in. If the traffic is already in, you yield to it. Do that (follow the signs and yield going in) and things will be great. Start ignoring what the signs say, and you're likely to cause a crash.

When you yield going in, you're already assuming traffic in either lane may be leaving the roundabout to your right. I.e., going in front of you. Which they can/should.

I went through the Lien Rd roundabout today (twice) for the first time with any significant amount of traffic. Based on 4:45 on a Friday, anyway, an order of magnitude better than it was before. No long backups at the light, no cars stuck waiting to go on Lien Rd east from Thompson, no cars trying to turn from both directions of Lien Rd onto Zeier Rd, etc. I'm guessing things might not flow *quite* as freely when things get *really* busy and cars have to stop and wait a few seconds to enter, but that still seems like nothing compared to the mess that was there before.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby fennel » Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:39 am

Article in today's paper. Wisconsin is noted for not being backwards re transportation for once. (Lately, anyway.)
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby c02 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:30 am

I did watch one future darwin award candidate exit the roundabout in his white pickemup truck, hit his brakes, jump the curb and drive over the grass to do a u-turn. Apparently circles are too confusing for some.

The only problem I have with some so-called roundabouts are the ones that are plunked in the middle of existing roadways, not designed for roundabouts. Roundabouts on roads designed for them are great.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby HeyZeus » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:38 am

I drove 'round the roundabout on Wednesday.

No accidents, no crashes. Then again, I don't find circles particularly vexing.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby rabble » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:56 am

If anybody cares, I've managed to go all the way through several roundabouts, several times now without incident.

About half the time I've watched somebody almost hit somebody else, usually because one was zipping right through while the other was trying to get his or her bearings. It also looked suspiciously like others were trying to see how close they could get to any bicycles in the loop without actually hitting one. This causes me to be more than a little apprehensive when I go through, but I manage.

Continue with the patronization and condescension.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:52 pm

fennel wrote:Article in today's paper. Wisconsin is noted for not being backwards re transportation for once. (Lately, anyway.)

Er, maybe not. New Jersey, a pioneer of roundabouts is getting rid of theirs:

:This is a list of traffic circles in New Jersey. The U.S. state of New Jersey at one point had a total of 101 traffic circles, 44 of which were part of state roads. However, the number has shrunk as traffic circles have been phased out by the New Jersey Department of Transportation"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tr ... New_Jersey
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby TheBookPolice » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:58 pm

From the NYT article:

The many traffic circles in New Jersey seem to have tainted perceptions of roundabouts for millions of Americans east of the Mississippi River.

“People say, ‘Hey, you ought to drive in some of those terrible monstrosities in New Jersey before you build them here,’ ” said Mr. Russell [Eugene R. Russell Sr., a civil engineering professor at Kansas State University and chairman], of the roundabout task force. “Now, I don’t disagree that they are monstrosities. But they also aren’t roundabouts.”
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby lukpac » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:30 pm

Also:

Traffic circles should not be confused with roundabouts, in which entering traffic must always yield to traffic already in the circle, and generally operate at much lower speeds.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circle

These junctions are sometimes called modern roundabouts in order to emphasise the distinction from older circular junction types which had different design characteristics and rules of operation. Older designs, called traffic circles or rotaries, are typically larger, operate at higher speeds, and often give priority to entering traffic[1].


Roundabouts require entering drivers to give way to all traffic within the roundabout, regardless of lane position, while traffic circles typically allow traffic to enter alongside traffic circulating in an inner lane without consequence.

Generally, exiting directly from the inner lane of a multi-lane roundabout is permitted, and such exiting traffic has the right-of-way over entering traffic. By contrast, exiting from the inner lane of a traffic circle is usually not permitted without first executing a lane change to the outside of the circle. Massachusetts, where older traffic circles, or rotaries, are commonplace, has a dwindling number of exceptions.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout

Neddy wrong? Must be a first.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:44 pm

TheBookPolice wrote:From the NYT article:

The many traffic circles in New Jersey seem to have tainted perceptions of roundabouts for millions of Americans east of the Mississippi River.

“People say, ‘Hey, you ought to drive in some of those terrible monstrosities in New Jersey before you build them here,’ ” said Mr. Russell [Eugene R. Russell Sr., a civil engineering professor at Kansas State University and chairman], of the roundabout task force. “Now, I don’t disagree that they are monstrosities. But they also aren’t roundabouts.”

This is hair-splitting. They all drive the same. Personally, I'm OK with them. They seem to keep traffic moving faster than lights, especially when more than two streets come together.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby lukpac » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:47 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:This is hair-splitting. They all drive the same.


No, they don't.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby TheBookPolice » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:55 pm

Sigh. From lukpac's previous post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circle / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout
Roundabouts require entering drivers to give way to all traffic within the roundabout, regardless of lane position, while traffic circles typically allow traffic to enter alongside traffic circulating in an inner lane without consequence.


Generally, exiting directly from the inner lane of a multi-lane roundabout is permitted, and such exiting traffic has the right-of-way over entering traffic. By contrast, exiting from the inner lane of a traffic circle is usually not permitted without first executing a lane change to the outside of the circle.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:02 pm

lukpac wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:This is hair-splitting. They all drive the same.


No, they don't.

Yes, they do. I've driven them in Europe, the East Coast and good 'ol Minny. You enter, drive around until your exist approaches and leave. Some are single lane, some are multiple lane, some have lights invloved, but they all drive the same. I don't care what the goofy diagrams say, that's the way it is where the rubber meets the road. Around here, they appear to be being sold as some "breaktrhough", like "new math". They're not new (except to some rubes here). They work well in some places, not so well in others.

As I mentioned earlier, they seem to work well where more than two streets intersect. They keep traffic flowing much better than lights. There's a circle near the toney, non-sinking barrier island on which I vacation and it really does help prevent traffic jams.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby lukpac » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:07 pm

Apparently Neddy has lost the ability to read.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby rabble » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:01 pm

Madison Crash Report: Intersection With Most Crashes: Lien Rd & N. Thompson Dr.

The City of Madison: Traffic Engineering Division has released its Crash Report for 2011.
dot dot dot
Top 10 Highest Crash Intersection Locations:
1. Lien Road & North Thompson Drive (23 crashes)


Madison's 2010 crash report is here.
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Re: New Lien Rd Roundabout

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:07 am

Minor fender benders are preferable to fatalities cause by a driver blowing through a stop sign. Or so the supporters of roundabouts say.
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