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High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Galoot » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:28 pm

WSY:

It was very fortunate that nobody was out on that sidewalk, or at that bus stop. There very often is at that time on a Friday evening.

Once again, I'm sure that no Madison cop would have pursued at nearly 100 mph down Monroe or Willy St.

Oh, Yupster, btw, we offered on an east side fixer-upper, and it was accepted today. So we're getting out of this neighborhood soon.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Walter » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:40 am

This is what I know based on what I have read and bear in mind this pursuit was captured on video. Our in-car video records not only the video but also the speed of the squad and if the emergency equipment was operational. Therefore, if any officer was going 100+ mph, it would be impossible to say they were going another speed. I have not seen the video although if it were my pursuit, I would review it before doing the report. Our video system can't be erased or changed in the car and goes from camera to hard drive and then downloaded to a secure server that I think about 3 people have access to in order to make copies. Supervisors can view video but not remove it and the video is archived for I think 6 months unless tagged for evidence, at which point it becomes permanently saved. I believe this pursuit video would be tagged to be saved as evidence.

I only mention our video system so you can know a record of this exists. The video was downloaded by the primary officer in the pursuit per policy and all pursuits are reviewed per policy, including the reports and video. The review is conducted by the street supervisor who monitored the pursuit as it occurred and then forwarded to the District Commanding Officer for another review. After this it is forwarded to the Chief's Office (Professional Standards i.e. Internal Affairs) for a final review. There are several layers of scrutiny on pursuits and a pursuit can be terminated at any time for any reason by the pursuing officers, a supervisor, the Officer-In-Charge monitoring via radio in the office at the CCB, or any other monitoring officer.

The primary officer saw the stolen car being driven recklessly in the lot of the gas station (turning in a circle as higher speed, squealing the tires, and sliding the back of the car out). The car left the lot and he got behind it, ran the plate and saw it was a stolen car. He then waited for another officer to respond before attempting the stop. Once the secondary officer was there, they attempted a vehicle stop using emergency equipment. The suspect car did not stop and continued to Allied Drive.

Both officers involved in the pursuit stated their top speeds were 40 to 45 mph. The primary officer believed the driver of the Pacifica (which was reported stolen as a result of a home burglary) was going to jump out of the car and bail. When they do this, it's usually a "ghost ride" as they jump out when the car slows. When the stolen car was being driven at 40 to 45 mph, the driver opened his door in what the primary officer believed was in preparation to bail out so the officer pulled up along side to keep the door from opening and to prevent an unguided car from being launched down Allied Drive. The driver of the stolen car had hit the curb and driven onto the sidewalk while he was opening his door.

The stolen car then increased its speed to approximately 60 mph. The primary officer then stated he "backed off a considerable distance" because he did not want to push the driver of the stolen into driving faster. He also said in his report he was concerned about the actions of the driver of the stolen car putting people on the street in danger if the pursuing squads matched the speed of the stolen car. The stolen car did slow from 60 mph after the primary officer backed off. By this time the suspect had rounded the corner onto Crescent Road.

When the pursuing officers squads came around the corner, the stolen car had already crashed and two persons were fleeing from it. Neither was caught after they ran through yards and jumped at least one fence.

If the second officer thought the pursuit was too dangerous, which was approximately 5 blocks and probably 15 to 20 seconds (again, I haven't seen the video or heard the radio traffic, and probably never will; I'm just estimating), she should have called it off. The officer in the best position to call it was the primary officer, as he was behind the stolen car with the best view of the traffic conditions and driving behavior of the suspect. I can't say with any certainty why the second officer would voice any opinion to a member of the public that she would have called the pursuit off. If that's the way she felt, then she should have. Nowhere in her report does she say she felt the pursuit should have been called off either. If I had to make a guess, she likely said it because someone was upset with the police and she just said this to placate them and make them go away, which is a stupid and not very veteran move to make.

I assure you that anyone pursuing a vehicle at 100+ mph down Allied or any other city street at just after 9:30 at night for a non-violent felony without the imminent risk of great bodily harm or death to the public by the suspect, not including his actions in the pursuit, would be on the hook for some discipline. I have my doubts one could even get a car up to 100 mph on Allied Drive and then be able to slow to even make the turn onto Crescent Road. I worked the West District and am familiar with the street there.

I hope this information helps to make this situation a little more clear. If you want to read our pursuit policy, it's on line here under Policy 6-300 and starts at page 154: http://www.cityofmadison.com/police/documents/PolicyandProcedureManual.pdf
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Galoot » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:03 am

Thanks, Walter, for putting in all that time writing that. It's time to put it behind us, it seems.

It at least motivated the city to put in some more speed humps. Construction crews are out there today adding another pair of speed humps on the south half of Allied.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Stu Levitan » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:41 pm

.
Galoot wrote:.
But I know for a fact that they did NOT back off, from two sources. One was the young policewoman in the 2nd pursuit vehicle, who said they should have backed off, and would have if it had been her in the lead vehicle.

The 2nd person was someone on a ride-along (I have no idea why) who by a bizarre coincidence, I met at the Verona dog park on Sunday. He said that they kept up pursuit because the person was driving crazy (starting out by peeling out from the Mobil station) and because he was driving crazy, for some reason they had to keep up the pursuit.


And now that Walter has explained reality for you, your response is, "It's time to put it behind us, it seems." That's all you've got? How about a freaking APOLOGY for spreading inflammatory untruths about MPD, eh?
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby ilikebeans » Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:59 pm

The Problem with Eyewitness Testimony

In the initial part of the experiment, subjects also viewed a slide showing a car accident. Some subjects were later asked how fast the cars were traveling when they "hit" each other, others were asked how fast the cars were traveling when they "smashed" into each other. Those subjects questioned using the word "smashed" were more likely to report having seen broken glass in the original slide. The introduction of false cues altered participants’ memories.

So, what is the reliability factor like when you're getting a third-hand account of the event?
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Galoot » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:08 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:
And now that Walter has explained reality for you, your response is, "It's time to put it behind us, it seems." That's all you've got? How about a freaking APOLOGY for spreading inflammatory untruths about MPD, eh?


I have nothing to apologize for. I still think that the police pursued at high speed, and I have the accounts of neighbors who SAW the pursuit coming around the corner.

What Walter said, as I understand it, is that there is video that should corroborate the official police report. He hasn't seen that video--have you seen, it, Stu?



And beans, what are you talking about with "third-hand testimony"? I cited two first-hand accounts, one from the policewoman in the 2nd police vehicle, the other from a person riding in the first police vehicle.

People in this neighborhood ARE pissed that the cops, as they see it, chose to pursue at high speed in their neighborhood, putting the lives of citizens at risk.

While talking the policewoman from the 2nd pursuit vehicle, I made a point of thanking her and the MPD for doing so much to help keep my neighborhood safe this summer, and I stand by that. I think this is one isolated incident.

Stu, you aren't seriously saying that all police reports of all incidents are unimpeachable, are you? That would surprise me.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby ilikebeans » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:12 pm

I was talking from our (other Forons') point of view.

First-hand: We witnessed the incident.
Second-hand: We heard about it from someone who witnessed it.
Third-hand: We heard about it from you, who heard about it from the other witnesses.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Galoot » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:19 pm

Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation.

I'm well aware of the hazards of even 1st hand eyewitness accounts in such accident scenes. The WWII vet across the street, for example, insisted today that he saw the police cars pursuing right behind the stolen car, as they came around the corner. I like the old coot, but I don't put a lot of weight on his testimony (My Cousin Vinny comes to mind). It does happen to corroborate two other very reliable first-hand accounts, though.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby ilikebeans » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:23 pm

It's certainly still possible the video will show a situation other than what the officers reported. I hope that is made public at some point.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Galoot » Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:29 pm

beans, that's certainly possible. I would like to put it behind me, but I'll ask this--Walter, do you feel that I owe an apology to MPD for what I've written?
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Walter » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:25 am

Galoot, I don't think you owe an apology. You had some concerns and questions. You voiced them.

It's still kind of a free country.

It's all good.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby Galoot » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:59 am

Thanks, man. I keep looking to buy you a drink at the Crystal on Wednesdays when Brown Derby is playing, but I have no idea who you are, so I just keep asking "WHO IS A COP IN HERE!?"

They haven't kicked me out yet.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:45 am

Look for this guy. He's the one ordering that they play Shuck It again at gunpoint. Can't miss 'im.

Image
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby bcs89 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:50 pm

Walter wrote:Galoot, I don't think you owe an apology. You had some concerns and questions. You voiced them.

It's still kind of a free country.

It's all good.


"concerns and questions" eh? Guess that's one way to put it..
another would be "ranting and raving" with an "accusation" or three thrown in to boot. It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from Galoot - when a person gets handed the shitty end of the stick, most of our first reactions are to lash out at those we perceive to have, shall we say, dirtied the stick. But usually, upon a bit calmer reflection, we come to realize our attacks may not of been warranted - and hope they pass with out too much weight being afforded them. But not you Galoot. Damn the torpedoes and full screed ahead! Only to be given a pass by the one (known) representative of the group you target as the cause of your troubles. And be honest Galoot - after Walters first post, the hast with which you attempted to put this to rest with a "oh well, things happen, best just to move on" is/was telling. But then, when challenged, you had to pick up the gauntlet again..

Well, if nothing else, this thread will serve as a reminder of how a class act behaves - thanks Walter.
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Re: High speed chase in a residential neighborhood!?

Postby WestSideYuppie » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:09 pm

Speaking of class acts, read the OP.

Galoot's description of the events is quite calm and objective, and his opinions seem fair given the information at his disposal at the time.

I don't think that "calmer reflection" is what happened here. Instead, it was more like the situation was clarified thanks to facts offered by Walter.

This is how reasonable people work things out, and indeed, put things behind them.
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