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North Sherman Avenue Proposal

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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:08 pm



Great link. I hadn't looked at that in a while. Funny how, from January 2007 to December 2011 there were only two accidents leading to injury on Sherman involving bikers or pedestrians. Two accidents. In five years.

Fuck those businesses and all the people who own them. We must eliminate this death trap immediately!
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:12 pm

Ninja wrote:held without the normal notice to the neighborhood


Except for what I posted.

david cohen wrote:I didn't see that notice Stebben...clearly neither did a lot of folks...they still only held one public meeting though and then made the decision.


So first they didn't have a public meeting. Then they had one, but didn't notify people. Then they notified people, but not enough were paying attention so they needed many more meetings.

Ninja wrote:Sure. I've spoken to dozens of friends, neighbors and business owners on the Northside about this situation and have yet to encounter a single person who had heard a single thing about this plan until after the decision had been made.


Not my fault y'all don't pay attention to what's happening in your neighborhood.

When my street was being re-done we had one community meeting, but there were other council meetings that I attended. I was pro-active in finding out about the meetings. The city isn't going to go to every house and see if someone needs a ride.

Plus, as I stated earlier in the thread, they've been studying this since 1996. People talk like it's out of the blue.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:17 pm

Ninja wrote:Funny how, from January 2007 to December 2011 there were only two accidents leading to injury on Sherman involving bikers or pedestrians. Two accidents. In five years.


For cyclists and pedestrians yes. There were 128 accidents total and 52 involving injury. I guess you can tell all those people to fuck themselves. You do realize they are not just looking at bikes and pedestrians, but traffic overall. That's why they call them "left turn lanes"
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:18 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Not my fault y'all don't pay attention to what's happening in your neighborhood.


Right, but this isn't just another stupid game for snarky, sanctimonious Madison shit heads to feel superior about, this is a real situation impacting real lives.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:20 pm

LOL..I'm guessing you were one of the grassroots organizers. That's cool. Whatever. I've decided it won't change my usage of Sherman. Hopefully the community can live with it. If they don't, they don't. Living well is always the best revenge:)
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:36 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Ninja wrote:Funny how, from January 2007 to December 2011 there were only two accidents leading to injury on Sherman involving bikers or pedestrians. Two accidents. In five years.


There were 128 accidents total and 52 involving injury.


128 accidents in 5 years on an entire street. That's nothing. Compare it to just a single intersection on the city's top 30 list:
http://www.cityofmadison.com/trafficEng ... Report.pdf

Which once again begs the question - why Sherman?

There's no obvious demand for bike lanes, and there are clearly places in the city that could desperately use them. There's virtually no history of bikers or pedestrians being injured on Sherman, but that's not the case at numerous other sites around town. The number of auto accidents on Sherman is quite low compared to tons of other streets around town. The economy on Sherman is considerably more delicate than just about anywhere else in town.

This is a stupid fucking vanity project for a small number of people who personally want to ride on the street, or just get off on feeling all enlightened for "encouraging" others to ride, and it's going to hurt people who have done nothing more than attempt to make a living. It serves no demand, eliminates no problems, and has no purpose other than to make the selfish and self-satisfied feel good.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:40 pm

Ninja wrote:There's no obvious demand for bike lanes...

Ninja wrote:It serves no demand, eliminates no problems, and has no purpose other than to make the selfish and self-satisfied feel good.

When you continue to make statements such as these, it becomes nearly impossible to take you or any of your statements seriously.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:47 pm

Ninja wrote:And both cases illustrate something that I've seen a lot more of in Madison than anywhere else - when a person is obviously, objectively, unequivocally in the wrong but they react with rage and defensiveness instead of just accepting their mistake.

projection?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:50 pm

jman111 wrote:
Ninja wrote:There's no obvious demand for bike lanes...

Ninja wrote:It serves no demand, eliminates no problems, and has no purpose other than to make the selfish and self-satisfied feel good.

When you continue to make statements such as these, it becomes nearly impossible to take you or any of your statements seriously.


I drive Sherman twice a day, every day, and I see maybe 5 bikers a week. No obvious demand.

The city study shows us that there are virtually no serious pedestrian or biking accidents, and very, very few serious auto accidents. No problem

If there's no obvious demand for a change, and there's no problem to be fixed, then there is no purpose.

And that would be fine, if there were no consequences. But there will be consequences. It will hurt businesses, and I think it will also make the street much more dangerous because Madison drivers don't do well with novelty. Hell, Madison drivers don't do well with things as simple as one-way streets and four-way stops. This is going to absolutely baffle them.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:53 pm

jman111 wrote:
Ninja wrote:And both cases illustrate something that I've seen a lot more of in Madison than anywhere else - when a person is obviously, objectively, unequivocally in the wrong but they react with rage and defensiveness instead of just accepting their mistake.

projection?


Explain to me how I'm wrong. Where is the obvious demand? Where are the statistics showing that there's a safety problem? What is the real purpose of this change?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:55 pm

Ninja wrote:I drive Sherman twice a day, every day, and I see maybe 5 bikers a week.

Then (1) you aren't looking or (2) you drive at extremely low volume times. I drive only a short segment of Sherman at least twice a day (probably 1 minute each way), and I often see 4 or 5 bikers in that segment just in the evening.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:56 pm

See, I think there is some level of demand for bike lanes on Sherman, albeit only from Late April to mid-October. I travel Sherman anywhere from 2-6 times a day, usually the full length, and I encounter probably 4-8 cyclists over the course of the day when it's nice out. What I *really* wish had been done was back in 2005, when Sherman was totally overhauled, they had widened the street to handle 4 lanes of traffic AND bike lanes. The City fucked that up royally and now we have a shitty solution with the 3 lane set up. Alas, you can't legislate intelligence, Ninja, all you can do is laugh and go about your business. That and GUN IT if you live on Sherman and want to back out of your drive way:)
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:09 pm

Ninja wrote:Explain to me how I'm wrong.

I'll make this quick:
Ninja wrote:It serves no demand...

"no demand"?
minicat wrote:I rode on Sherman most days last summer because it was the most direct and least hilly route to downtown (the marked bicycle route which winds around randomly in the neighborhood east of Sherman really, really sucks, as does riding on the sidewalk).

acereraser wrote:As a new resident of the Northside, I demanded a safe bike path from my alder (Schumacher) in early 2006. That demand still exists, but the bike path does not.

Stebben84 wrote:Also, I like riding out to Cherokee Marsh. It's a beautiful area, but I absolutely hate Sherman for cycling so I rarely go there.

jman111 wrote:I drove the segment from Oxford Pl north to Northport yesterday at 6:30pm on my way out of town. I counted 17 bikes in those several minutes.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:12 pm

Ninja wrote:Explain to me how I'm wrong.

It seems you may have been wrong when you declared this last part:
Ninja wrote:My God, it's like arguing with teenagers. Do whatever you want. I'm done.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:43 pm

In the ~40 seconds I just spent driving on Sherman I saw 4 bicyclists- 3 northbound (including one on the sidewalk) and 1 southbound (on the sidewalk).
The northbound sidewalk rider (riding on the west side of Sherman) almost got creamed by a car exiting the Citgo station. He's lucky he was paying attention and was able to stop before the car pulled out, apparently without looking south down the sidewalk.
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