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North Sherman Avenue Proposal

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?

Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:09 pm

Ninja wrote:
rabble wrote:Please, enlighten me. The people I know who live in that neighborhood think they were part of the driving force behind it.

Since they're friends of mine and I know they don't want to think bullshit stuff, I'd like to tell them their thinking is bullshit but I need a little more than that.

Can you expand on it a little bit?


Sure. I've spoken to dozens of friends, neighbors and business owners on the Northside about this situation and have yet to encounter a single person who had heard a single thing about this plan until after the decision had been made.

There was one meeting, held without the normal notice to the neighborhood, back in October, and then it was over. This is something that's being done to my neighborhood, not by my neighborhood, or for my neighborhood.

Well, that trumps the five people I know who attended more than one meeting, followed the process, and made their opinions known. Ya got me there.

I haven't seen any of 'em for a few days but next time I do I'll ask 'em how many meetings they attended.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:10 pm

jman111 wrote:It seems you may have been wrong when you declared this last part:
Ninja wrote:My God, it's like arguing with teenagers. Do whatever you want. I'm done.


I changed my mind. I'm not done arguing about this because I think it's absolutely unacceptable. And I recently realized that I need to stay in Madison for another year or face tax penalties because I availed myself of the refundable tax credit back in the day, so as long as I'm here I'm going to fight for my adopted neighborhood.

I admit that I do see a few recreational bikers on most evenings. I was refering to morning and evening rush hours, which I should have clarified. On-street bike lanes are for bike commuters. Recreational riders can ride anywhere and ride comfortably even on arterial streets during non-peak hours. My overall point is that regardless of how many people you see biking on or around Sherman on a given day, we all know that there are streets in Madison that have far, far more bikers and no bike lanes. That's existing demand. Not the handful of people biking Sherman today, or the handful of additional bikers who might join them if there were fewer cars and bigger bike lanes.

I talked to several employees and owners of Sherman businesses as I stopped and did errands on my drive home tonight. I continue to be amazed at how many of them aren't even aware that this proposal has been adopted and is a done deal. Literally every owner I've spoken to became aware of this only after the meeting took place. To me that says a lot about the adequecy of notice provided for the public meeting and how much community support it actual enjoys. These are people who are extremely motivated to keep up on public policy developments in the neighborhood, and speak out in defense of their livelihoods when necessary. In fact, I think that's exactly why there wasn't more (or even the ordinary amount of) notice provided.

I still don't understand why a bike path, regardless of cost and difficulty, isn't an option. Why impose that cost and difficulty on indvidual private citizens? The whole idea seems preposterous to me. How is it fair to pull the rug out from under them like this? Combine that unfairness with the lack of significant, observable demand for bike lanes, the lack of crash stats illustrating a disproportionate safety problem and the delicate nature of the slowly developing economy, and I thnk you've got a problem. This is not a rational decision, it's an arbitrary, superficial gesture.

So I'm not done, I'm just getting started. I'm reactivating my Wisconsin law license and we're gonna mix it up a little bit. And I'm a fucking pitbull when I'm motivated, so I hope that all the Ts are crossed and Is are dotted.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:38 pm

...regardless of how many people you see biking on or around Sherman on a given day, we all know that there are streets in Madison that have far, far more bikers and no bike lanes.


Are you sure of this? You better pick some examples if you want to argue your case effectively. Almost all major streets have traffic counts available, so compare the traffic counts with that on Sherman so you're doing apples to apples. Find comparable streets, ones with no parallel bike path or designated bike lane, and get your data in line.

I don't really have a position on the Sherman redesign, except that in general I like to see more parity for bikers. One reason you are not seeing a huge number of bikers commuting or using the street recreationally is it's so difficult to bike on. So you can't take current usage and just apply it to what the post-redesign usage will be.

If you are going to get all overheated about this, you need to have both data and alternatives to show. So far all you've got is your own opinion businesses will be hurt, and that in reality remains to be seen. The least you can do is some applicable research and envisioning.

I do agree it would be nice to have a dedicated separate bike path going north, but how is that ruled out by a redesign of Sherman? It's not either/or. They could complement one another, they could connect and then diverge, or any number of other possibilities.

I am not discouraging you -- neighborhood activists can do a whole lot of good in different ways -- but because the neighborhood does not seem to be as tightly organized as, say, the downtown neighborhoods, you've got to do all the groundwork on your own and you'll do better if you are methodical about it. Having a group of interested parties working with you will help gain you credibility.

And when you're done if there's a reasonable way to bike from the downtown out to Frugal Muse and Manna, you can be sure I'll use it. Right now, nope.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:32 am

snoqueen wrote:Are you sure of this? You better pick some examples if you want to argue your case effectively. Almost all major streets have traffic counts available, so compare the traffic counts with that on Sherman so you're doing apples to apples. Find comparable streets, ones with no parallel bike path or designated bike lane, and get your data in line.


Monroe and Regent jump to mind as streets that see much more bike traffic, with no bike lanes, and no option to legally ride on the sidewalk in most areas (unlike Sherman). And they have economies that could more readily absorbed this kind of thing because of campus and general downtown foot traffic. So there must be some particular reason to single out Sherman for this treatment rather than what would seem to be a more suitable streets like Monroe or Regent. Except there's not.

I understand that those streets have a more popular bike path option, but that's what I'm arguing for the Northside. Why not a bike path? How is it not the absolute last resort to consider turning a commercial corridor into a novelty street?

And I appreciate the advice, but this isn't my first rodeo. I'm not trying to win a popularity contest, I think there are some legal flaws with the way this is being implemented and I have no problem suing big dogs.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby sylvie » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:27 am

david cohen wrote: they didn't post an announcement on the northside discussion listserv

Stebben84 wrote
You mean like this from the list serv:
Study Planned for N. Sherman Avenue
Posted By:
satya_vadia
Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:31 am |
Options

How many northsiders know about this listserv? How many are on it?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby O.J. » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:44 am

Ninja wrote: And I recently realized that I need to stay in Madison for another year or face tax penalties because I availed myself of the refundable tax credit back in the day, so as long as I'm here I'm going to fight for my adopted neighborhood.


Are you talking about the first-time homebuyer credit? Unless I missed an extension, this expired in May 2010. You only need to be the principal resident of that home for 3 years to receive the full credit, you should be in the clear(I took advantage of the same credit).

By the way, why did you purchase a home in such a godforsaken hellhole as Madison?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:55 am

Monroe and Regent jump to mind as streets that see much more bike traffic, with no bike lanes...


And they have one of the most heavily-used bike paths in the city running parallel, as you acknowledged later in your posting. Hardly anybody actually rides on either Monroe or Regent, especially the business part of Regent, unless they're patronizing the businesses.

So they are most certainly NOT comparable to Sherman with regard to bike usage.

I don't think anybody disagrees that a dedicated bike path would be preferable to the lane thing on Sherman. So it's on you to figure out its path, since everybody else seems to have failed.

Who in the world do you want to sue? For what?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:01 am

sylvie wrote:How many northsiders know about this listserv? How many are on it?

I only know five, but they all acted like everybody knew about it. I think it's the one mentioned here in the northside news website:
http://northsidemadison.org/npc-staff

If it's not, then there's more than one listserv.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:05 am

snoqueen wrote:I don't think anybody disagrees that a dedicated bike path would be preferable to the lane thing on Sherman. So it's on you to figure out its path, since everybody else seems to have failed.

It was indeed fortunate that the Monroe/Regent neighborhoods had an abandoned railroad track handy.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby O.J. » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:13 am

Ninja wrote:So I'm not done, I'm just getting started. I'm reactivating my Wisconsin law license and we're gonna mix it up a little bit. And I'm a fucking pitbull when I'm motivated, so I hope that all the Ts are crossed and Is are dotted.


Damn, dude, you're quite the badass.

Image
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:38 am

O.J. wrote:Are you talking about the first-time homebuyer credit? Unless I missed an extension, this expired in May 2010. You only need to be the principal resident of that home for 3 years to receive the full credit, you should be in the clear(I took advantage of the same credit).

By the way, why did you purchase a home in such a godforsaken hellhole as Madison?


I got a couple of variances because there were some weird paperwork problems. Technically I'd be off the hook in November, but I'm not trying to sell a house and move during the winter.

Buying a home here was the biggest mistake of my life. And there are all kinds of great things about Madison, which I let cloud my judgment when I made the decision to buy, but it's just not a good fit for me personally. I can't stand the small town culture, whether we're talking about the racism or the unwillingness to drive properly or whatever.

I remember being stunned at the behavior here when I first moved to town and somehow convincing myself that it would clear itself up in two or three years as certain people realized that Madison was becoming a city, and they weren't comfortable living in a city. Instead I think it's gotten worse as people stubbornly push back against encroaching reality (and I think this Sherman proposal is an example of that desire to retain small town cuteness regardless of the consequences).

Good life lesson for me on the dangers of making big decisions based on optimism instead of pragmatism.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:46 am

snoqueen wrote:
Monroe and Regent jump to mind as streets that see much more bike traffic, with no bike lanes...


And they have one of the most heavily-used bike paths in the city running parallel, as you acknowledged later in your posting. Hardly anybody actually rides on either Monroe or Regent, especially the business part of Regent, unless they're patronizing the businesses.

So they are most certainly NOT comparable to Sherman with regard to bike usage.

I don't think anybody disagrees that a dedicated bike path would be preferable to the lane thing on Sherman. So it's on you to figure out its path, since everybody else seems to have failed.

Who in the world do you want to sue? For what?


Okay, Johnson and Gorham. Or Willy Street. Or any number of places around town that have steady, observable commuter bike traffic on the street, regardless of whether or not those people could be using a bike path. It probably helps me that they're not using the path provided for them.

And I would be suing the city, on behalf of business owners, for overstepping their bounds. There are a couple of angles I could approach it from (one of which was extremely succesful for a major business elsewhere in town recently) but I don't see any need to lay out my case here and give the city time to prepare.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby DCB » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:18 am

Ninja wrote:I remember being stunned at the behavior here when I first moved to town and somehow convincing myself that it would clear itself up in two or three years as certain people realized that Madison was becoming a city, and they weren't comfortable living in a city.

Madison didn't suddenly (in "two or three years") transform itself into the ideal metropolis of your imagination.

Wow.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby DCB » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:29 am

Because I care about life in my neighborhood, I go to neighborhood association meetings, I read the newsletter, I signed up for the NA email list, and I'm also on my alder's email list.

I had to pro-actively get involved, because I know that's how things work. I don't expect news to be spoonfed to me.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:23 pm

DCB wrote:Because I care about life in my neighborhood, I go to neighborhood association meetings, I read the newsletter, I signed up for the NA email list, and I'm also on my alder's email list.

I had to pro-actively get involved, because I know that's how things work. I don't expect news to be spoonfed to me.


Neat.

I picture you sadly holding your arm out waiting for a high-five that's never going to be delivered.
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