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North Sherman Avenue Proposal

What are the things that puzzle, enrage, delight and tickle you as you go about your life in Madison?

Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:05 pm

Ninja wrote: I've also been a conservative republican, a lawn nazi and a bad tipper, even though none of those labels are even remotely accurate. It's very insecure and dogmatic on this board, but it's kind of fascinating. Labels in general seem to be a big thing in Madison.

That's a lot of reasons for why you keep getting mischaracterized.

Have you considered that you might not be very good at expressing yourself? Or that you might actually be expressing your true self?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:06 pm

sylvie wrote:When people go on about everyone being "fully informed", methinks they protest too much.

While you, on the other hand, are protesting juuuuuust right.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:19 pm

I must say that I wasn't happy with how this was done either, but I'm willing to see how things work out. Yeah, I have my feelings about how it will work out, given the last "experiment", but I can deal with it, and I use Sherman almost exclusively 2-4 round trips a day. My real concern is bicyclists straying out of their lanes and getting hit. I have many neighbors who bike Sherman and I'd hate to see any of them injured. Alas, it is my hope that the bike enthusiasts can police each other so the ones who tend to flaunt traffic laws will respect cars and, in turn, get respect from drivers. The other thing I worry about is winter, when that bike lane is gone and the traffic lane narrows due to snow. That, my friends, will be "Sherman Roulette"! In the meantime, stay safe!
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby barney » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:33 pm

david cohen wrote:The other thing I worry about is winter, when that bike lane is gone and the traffic lane narrows due to snow. That, my friends, will be "Sherman Roulette"! In the meantime, stay safe!


How will this be any different than it was in winter with the two traffic lanes that went right to the curb? Or are you talking about the bikes?

It's a bus route, so they keep it very well plowed.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:44 pm

rabble wrote:
Ninja wrote: I've also been a conservative republican, a lawn nazi and a bad tipper, even though none of those labels are even remotely accurate. It's very insecure and dogmatic on this board, but it's kind of fascinating. Labels in general seem to be a big thing in Madison.

That's a lot of reasons for why you keep getting mischaracterized.

Have you considered that you might not be very good at expressing yourself? Or that you might actually be expressing your true self?


Maybe you're right, and my whole "real" life has been a fraud to cover up my true self that only the small-minded daily page commenters can shed light on. I've been exposed, so I promise to tip less, mow more, and talk shit to bicyclers.

It's so great that there's this online community of such informed, well-adjusted, normal people to provide these insights.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby DCB » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:02 pm

Ninja wrote:It's so great that there's this online community of such informed, well-adjusted, normal people to provide these insights.

You're welcome.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:14 pm

Except for the problem of those who think this transition was procedurally unacceptable, I think we're having an argument about what hasn't yet taken place. We will find out (by Christmas or new years, maybe?) whether the new Sherman configuration destroys businesses or not. We'll also have a preliminary read on whether safety has been compromised. Until then, people can stamp and shout all they want and it won't amount to a thing because it hasn't happened yet.

I too am concerned about bike safety. I really, really wish some route for a dedicated bike path could be found but I've said that enough times already. I am not sure the new lane configuration is any improvement at all.

Ninja seems to think we face wholesale failure. If I don't understand this right, just use a few declarative sentences and say what you think we face. I am not trying to misstate your beliefs but rather compare what I think with what you think.

I think a few new businesses may appear on Packers targeting those commuters, a few new businesses may appear on Sherman targeting local or bike customers, and overall these changes will be gradual and not cataclysmic. Whole mini-malls will not fold (well, some have been marginal for years), but individual businesses may shuffle around.

Those are my own predictions, parallel with Ninja's. We'll see where reality takes us.

But it's nothing to get hostile or argue about -- you can't prove a prediction. You can defend one, but not prove it.

I believe for fiscal reasons, density-and-growth reasons, and many other reasons slower city traffic is the way of the future. We've got a huge Verona-Madison interchange in the works from DOT, but that trend is the Walker/big box/dinosaur trend and is not sustainable. What they're doing on Sherman is the way of the future -- small businesses, local traffic, more kinds of transit, and yet-to-be-seen changes in commuting.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby fennel » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:29 pm

david cohen wrote:My real concern is bicyclists straying out of their lanes and getting hit. I have many neighbors who bike Sherman and I'd hate to see any of them injured. Alas, it is my hope that the bike enthusiasts can police each other so the ones who tend to flaunt traffic laws will respect cars and, in turn, get respect from drivers.
It's not about users of one particular vehicle having to respect the users of another. That's silly. And depending on the context, it's the very same person.

Generally, it's car drivers who flaunt traffic laws (out of convenience or an unwillingness to recognize that most traffic laws were made without consideration of bicyclists). But I have seen plenty of bikers and plenty of drivers who flout the laws, seemingly out of some sense of entitlement. Who knows, really?

But there's room for mutual respect, as well as a mutual understanding that the the burden of responsibility is a bit different for someone operating a 3000-pound vehicle versus someone who outweighs his/her vehicle by a 6:1 ratio.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby rabble » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:35 pm

Ninja wrote: my whole "real" life has been a fraud to cover up my true self that only the small-minded daily page commenters can shed light on.

You illustrate the point so well. :-)
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ninja » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:04 pm

snoqueen wrote:Ninja seems to think we face wholesale failure. If I don't understand this right, just use a few declarative sentences and say what you think we face. I am not trying to misstate your beliefs but rather compare what I think with what you think.

I think a few new businesses may appear on Packers targeting those commuters, a few new businesses may appear on Sherman targeting local or bike customers, and overall these changes will be gradual and not cataclysmic. Whole mini-malls will not fold (well, some have been marginal for years), but individual businesses may shuffle around.


No, you nailed it when it comes to my thoughts on the matter. No further declaratives necessary.

But I continue to question the nonchalance about the economic consequences. You seem willing to concede now that businesses will have to "shuffle," but you have to know that that's no small thing. Packers can't replace Sherman. Businesses may fill the small number of vacant or under-utilized storefronts available, but the rest is occupied houses and airport/East High property.

And there's a reason that the small number of fronts on Packers are vacant in spite of the large amount of traffic on that street. It's because Packers will never be a commercial corridor unless it's totally reconfigured. It's a 6 lane, 35 mph bypass with no left turn access (for good reason) except in rare increments.

Sherman is it. If that street goes, then the Northside is going start looking pretty grim.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:33 am

OK, that's clarity.

I think the prediction of the death of Sherman Ave business life show a misunderstanding of how a healthy small-retail and service-type businesses (bars, restaurants, etc) work on a through street in a largely residential area.

Monroe St., Willy St, and the Atwood/Schenk's area come to mind. Even though the first two suffer parking difficulties, all three are lined with highly-sought-after business locations and successful businesses. I think Sherman will turn out to be similarly lively over time, and moving faster car traffic not destined for any of these shops over onto Packers is helpful to both the traffic and the Sherman Ave businesses. Sherman Avenue will remain the commercial corridor.

We'll see, won't we?

Urban planners have found businesses serving afternoon commuters thrive on the homeward side of a split lane highway, and the PDQ people seem to have taken advantage of that tendency on Packers. Packers isn't ever going to be a commercial corridor -- it's a commuter throughway with a few businesses alongside. There aren't a lot of other lots on that homeward stretch available to develop, but more destination-type businesses are coming up on the inbound side. In addition, businesses over near Ale Asylum, reached off Packers, are doing pretty well. The north side isn't doomed. In fact, if I was looking for a house today, it's the first area I'd check out.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby Ducatista » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:46 am

Sidebar:

You flaunt your good fortune. (or bling/tramp stamp/whatever)

You flout a law.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:24 am

david cohen wrote:My real concern is bicyclists straying out of their lanes and getting hit.

So were you not concerned with the previous situation, in which bicyclists' only non-sidewalk option was actually riding IN a car lane? Weren't you concerned with bikes getting hit in that scenario? Which is worse?
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby jman111 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:27 am

Ninja wrote:
jman111 wrote:
Ninja wrote:...even though the specific note that you quote conflicts with state law.

The paragraph you cited doesn't seem to be contradicted. Do you know the applicable state law regarding left turn entrances from midblock driveways?


Same as any other left turn entry onto a two-way highway with a middle turn lane.

"A left turn into a 2−way highway having an uneven number of lanes shall be made so as to enter the highway in the lane immediately to the right of the center lane."

Doesn't matter if you're coming from a side street, a parking lot or a driveway, you're making a left turn to enter the roadway so you need to end up in the lane to the right of the center lane, not in the center lane.

Except, the statute you cite specifically states:
346.31 Required position and method of turning at intersections.

That's why I asked about an applicable statute. I'm honestly curious.
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Re: North Sherman Avenue Proposal

Postby david cohen » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:34 am

of course i was concerned about the prior set up, which is why i had been advocating for widening Sherman to handle bike lanes when it was redone 5 years ago....and I also advocated for the city and Oscar Mayer and Wisc Southern to come up with some way to get a bike trail through their mutual properties. The best of both worlds for everybody concerned:)

But i also realize this isn't just about bike lanes; rather, some people want a "Main Street" feel to N. Sherman. As Snow points out, it remains to be seen how this all shakes out. I think everyone wants it to shake out in a positive manner:)

Fennel, it's been my experience in Madison that both cars and bikes flaunt the traffic laws fairly frequently, much to the detriment of everyone on the road. People in this town are, in general, shitty drivers and shitty bicyclists. I cannot explain why, but they are.....more so than any other city I have ever lived.
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