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Saturday, August 30, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 73.0° F  Overcast
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Should a Confederate Flag be burned at the Nazi rally?

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Should we burn a Confederate flag?

Hell yeah, light that Southern Swastika up!
9
43%
Yes, and hire a drunk rugby team to piss it out
5
24%
No, I'm a moderate, just iron it on too high a setting.
1
5%
No, it might provoke the ten nazis present to kick all 900 of our asses.
2
10%
No, sell it to the Loitering Law advocates and spend the money on beer.
1
5%
No, the Fourth Reich won. Better suck up to them.
3
14%
 
Total votes : 21

Postby Peanutbutter » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:04 pm

BobArctor keeps claiming that the loitering law is a component of a Klan conspiracy.

Image

He's a seriously delusional puppy.
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Postby BobArctor » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:36 pm

Image
Klan apologists. sheesh...
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Postby lonesomejohnny » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:26 am

Allright, Bob, you really need to start providing links in support of your statements, because I really want to verify some things before I go out and refer to something something in a discussion.

So in order to preserve the integrity of some of the claims you've made on this thread:


Which member of Molly Hatchet kicked you in the balls?
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Postby StateEmp » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:34 am

In my opinion anyone who lives in a northern state has no right to claim any kind of "heritage" attachment to this flag. If they do come from a southern, formerly confederate state and are so damned proud of their so-called "heritage" then why move up here to live amongst us free thinking yanks? Second, the people I have known in my life who have the CSA flag displayed somewhere appeared to do so for the "rebel" connotation attached to that flag. Of course, I will note that these people were mostly young and seeking a way to express that "rebellious" feeling. Some grew out of it, those that didn't wound up living in small towns or trailer parks. Far away enough to keep them from bothering the open minded people of Madison.
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Postby BobArctor » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:10 am

lonesomejohnny wrote:Which member of Molly Hatchet kicked you in the balls?
Hee hee hee. A guy with dark hair and a mustache, punched me in the face. I was already trashed and looking at old pix of Danny Joe Brown, sure looks like the guy who hit me first. Didn't get exactly which others took a swing at me. Didn't say I was kicked in the balls, I said they beat me up. Quite so. The thought of wearing a cup under future adventures of this sort is simply good sense.

I wrote: True: Molly Hatchet beat me up in a cheap motel in Sauk City, about 1991.
Started the evening at Camelot Apts, taking some lingerie shots of a model acquantence. She and her gal pal invited me to attend a Molly Hatchet concert in Sauk City. We went to the show. I was that fond of the band and just slammed beers. After the show, lingerie girl wants to get into the band's private party.

The band is already stocked on bimbos and give her static. She points to me and says "He's a journalist and wants to interview you." I'm already pretty trashed and am trying to tell lingerie girl that this isn't my beat. It still gets the three of us into the party. Band frontman is saying "alright, so interview me already." Knowing nothing really about the band, my first doubt was that this was even the real band. Figured it was one of the original members and some pick-up band. But it's just a mistake for me to attempt music coverage.

My first question was "Do you get any negative feedback for the prominent display of the Confederate flag during your show? Band guy (Brown?) says "Only if there's a bunch of n*****s in the audience." A Florida rocker with enough sense to lose the offending flag, once sang "I won't back down." This interview just couldn't end well.

I took the bottle of whiskey from band guy's hand an took a big slug from it. I asked "Does that social attitude limit Molly Hatchet to being a nostalgia act, playing cow towns like Sauk City?" Band guy had a pretty fair punch and dropped me like a sack of spuds. A few more punches landed on me. Fade to black. I woke up in my Volvo, in the parking lot of Camelot Apts.
Image


Getting rabies shots from the same ER crew in Des Moines that treated Ozzie Ozbourne isn't relevant to this thread. We'll save that one.
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Postby Wesmon » Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:49 am

Just to clarify, I don't think all the south is bad. I lived in Memphis for a few years and loved the place. I really think the racism thing is more of a rural and smaller town thing, be it in the north or south. So big cities in the south are no more racist than cities up north, and smaller towns are racist everywhere, the only difference being that it is easier to notice down south where minorities actually are living in small towns, while up north small towns are all white.

I lived in Columbus, WI, 30 miles down the road from Madison until I was 10, and my 3rd grade teacher used to tell her students that blacks were criminals, drug addicts, didn't mow their lawns, lived on welfare and left trash all over. These views were so uncontroversial that no one ever called her on it or even really noticed it.
Last edited by Wesmon on Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bwis53 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:20 am

I once had a middle school english teacher, from Missouri, who said blacks were poor learners.

The one comment I heard in Madison, a long time ago, was from a black,"At least down South, they call you a nigger to your face!" I think that just about says it all.

I've never regreting fighting the battle to not move my family to Deltona, Florida or Dallas, because I wasn't satisfied special education programs were as good as Chicago's.

However, I've been extreemly impressed by so many people who live in the South, or are from the South. At least when I'm getting customer service from a company down there, they are good on the phone and they know what they're doing. It was a pleasure to wait on southern students, last year. Some of them feel like their accent marks them negatively. I'm amazed at how many writers and artists decide that once they've "made it", want to settle back at their roots. I mean why would they want to go back to "that"?

Something that really sticks in the back of my mind in this "North=Good , South=Bad" idea, is the idea that the Civil War was just about slavery. I'm not a scholar, but I like that song,"The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" If Lincoln had lived, I wonder if the South would have been treated as harshly. I'm sure someone more brilliant than myself, could expand on that.

I got my first nickle bag from a Texan...
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Postby Wesmon » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:50 am

Bwis53 wrote:I once had a middle school english teacher, from Missouri, who said blacks were poor learners.

The one comment I heard in Madison, a long time ago, was from a black,"At least down South, they call you a nigger to your face!" I think that just about says it all.


Both Malcolm X and MLK have commented on how racism is just as pervasive in the north, it's just not as out in the open.

I've never regreting fighting the battle to not move my family to Deltona, Florida or Dallas, because I wasn't satisfied special education programs were as good as Chicago's.


It's not just special education that sucks down here, it's all public education.

However, I've been extreemly impressed by so many people who live in the South, or are from the South. At least when I'm getting customer service from a company down there, they are good on the phone and they know what they're doing. It was a pleasure to wait on southern students, last year. Some of them feel like their accent marks them negatively. I'm amazed at how many writers and artists decide that once they've "made it", want to settle back at their roots. I mean why would they want to go back to "that"?


People are alot more friendly and outgoing down south for sure. Everywhere I have been though, I find the service to be terrible. People are so relaxed and friendly that they can't get things done fast or orderly. I have spent more time in lines here in a year than I did all the years I lived in Madison.
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Postby BobArctor » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:24 pm

StateEmp wrote: ...the people I have known in my life who have the CSA flag displayed somewhere appeared to do so for the "rebel" connotation attached to that flag. Of course, I will note that these people were mostly young and seeking a way to express that "rebellious" feeling. Some grew out of it, those that didn't wound up living in small towns or trailer parks.
That's who the Klowns were looking to recruit. Smarter racists, like Sensenbrenner or Mark Green, have learned to talk in code. You've given me the idea to collect pictures of Klan flags for posting online though. That isn't a CSA flag by the way. That is the Rebel battle flag which is why the Klan uses it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_t ... of_America
Wesmon wrote: I lived in Memphis for a few years and loved the place. I really think the racism thing is more of a rural and smaller town thing, be it in the north or south. So big cities in the south are no more racist than cities up north, and smaller towns are racist everywhere, the only difference being that it is easier to notice down south where minorities actually are living in small towns, while up north small towns are all white.
Police are also very different. The maids boyfriend at the Admiral Benbow Motel (1220 Union Ave., Memphis TN), stole my luggage and laptop in 1998. The responding officer (A. Craig, badge 443D), told me they didn't assign case numbers to such things. I wondered if the cops there could read and write. When Black folks started moving into Sun Prairie, the police force increased from 17 to 29 officers, almost overnight.
Wesmon wrote:I lived in Columbus, WI, 30 miles down the road from Madison until I was 10, and my 3rd grade teacher used to tell her students that blacks were criminals, drug addicts, didn't mow their lawns, lived on welfare and left trash all over. These views were so uncontroversial that no one ever called here on it or even really noticed it.
Columbus has been a political mess lately. The City Council there has been behaving in a grossly corrupt and beligerant manner. They think they permenantly have a right to exercise power and act like a six-pack of mini Leibermans. The previous Columbus mayor was a Madison slumlord. He owned Capitol View Terrace apts, which was one of the worst shitholes in the metro.
Bwis53 wrote: The one comment I heard in Madison, a long time ago, was from a black,"At least down South, they call you a nigger to your face!"
That's an old one, as is "In the South you can get as close as you want but don't get too big. In the North, get as big as you want but don't get too close."
Bwis53 wrote: I've never regreting fighting the battle to not move my family to Deltona, Florida or Dallas, because I wasn't satisfied special education programs were as good as Chicago's.
My younger sister just resigned as an inner-city elementary teacher in Chicago and moved to Buford, GA. She is appalled at how backwards the school system is. She has my sympathy for being stuck in such a culturally dismal place.
Bwis53 wrote: Something that really sticks in the back of my mind in this "North=Good , South=Bad" idea, is the idea that the Civil War was just about slavery. ... If Lincoln had lived, I wonder if the South would have been treated as harshly.
Lincoln was nuts in his own right and it isn't correct to portray him as an egalitarian. He was quite racist by today's standards. He was also a Republican, which is why all the powerful white folk were die-hard Democrats until LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. My great-grand uncle Ullyses was a drunk with a social aniety dis-order and not a great president.

The economic system in Dixie was dependent on slavery to get the work done. Much like the sleazy businesses of today depend on sweat shops and illegals as a source of exploitable labor. The potential for conflict between the neanderthal racist right and the fat cats who depend on the cheap labor has some entertainment potential.
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Postby Bwis53 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:17 pm

So is younger sis going to tough it out and fight the good fight, or get out asap?

What I was driving at, about the Civil War, is the South didn't like being told what to do, by a North that wasn't much better. If you're a shirtwaist textiler in New York, with a fire-trap sweatshop, who are you to tell a plantation owner how to run things? This is an old argument but still pertinent, I think in showing why they were resentful. It wasn't until I got out of highschool ,into a broader world, and got to know southerners I didn't feel like sniffing at!
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Postby BobArctor » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:32 pm

Bwis53 wrote:So is younger sis going to tough it out and fight the good fight, or get out asap?

What I was driving at, about the Civil War, is the South didn't like being told what to do, by a North that wasn't much better. If you're a shirtwaist textiler in New York, with a fire-trap sweatshop, who are you to tell a plantation owner how to run things? This is an old argument but still pertinent, I think in showing why they were resentful. It wasn't until I got out of highschool ,into a broader world, and got to know southerners I didn't feel like sniffing at!
Weirdly enough, my sis is a die-hard Bushite and a school teacher. Told her this is almost exotic enough to qualify her for membership in the X Men. Even still, she thinks Georgia is institutionaly stupid.

The Civil War was the end of states rights. Your point is well-taken and historically correct. The level of public discussion has deteriorated to a shouting match with increasingly racist tones. Historical accuraccy and subtlety has been lost. Damned shame too.
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Postby Bwis53 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:01 pm

My ex-brother-in-law is a union postal worker, with all the bennies, but he voted for Bush.

I come from a long line of craftman and artisans, who worked with their hands alot. The relationship between plantation and sweatshop, and craftsperson and consumer has always interested me. (I force myself to learn at the keyboard, while I'd rather stitch or sketch.)
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Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Aug 27, 2006 5:33 pm

Bwis53 wrote:What I was driving at, about the Civil War, is the South didn't like being told what to do, by a North that wasn't much better. If you're a shirtwaist textiler in New York, with a fire-trap sweatshop, who are you to tell a plantation owner how to run things? This is an old argument but still pertinent, I think in showing why they were resentful.

Actually, that's pretty much backwards. It was the South that was trying to tell the North what to do!
See, there were laws in place that protected the property of slaveowners - that is, if your property ran away, anyone who caught'em was legally obligated to send'em back. Many Northern states started disregarding these laws and when the South went crying to the Feds they received no satisfaction. In other words, it was the South who were trying to tell the other states what to do ("send back my slaves!") not vice versa.
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Postby Bwis53 » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:03 pm

Where as, a little Jewish girl, in a bad sweat shop could just take a walk and find a job with better conditions and no bad repercussions? (Am I stretching it? If so, I sincerely apologize.)
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Postby BobArctor » Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:39 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Bwis53 wrote:What I was driving at, about the Civil War, is the South didn't like being told what to do, by a North that wasn't much better. If you're a shirtwaist textiler in New York, with a fire-trap sweatshop, who are you to tell a plantation owner how to run things? This is an old argument but still pertinent, I think in showing why they were resentful.

Actually, that's pretty much backwards. It was the South that was trying to tell the North what to do!
See, there were laws in place that protected the property of slaveowners - that is, if your property ran away, anyone who caught'em was legally obligated to send'em back. Many Northern states started disregarding these laws and when the South went crying to the Feds they received no satisfaction. In other words, it was the South who were trying to tell the other states what to do ("send back my slaves!") not vice versa.
There's the historical accuracy police, right on schedule. Thanks, Prof Wags. Have to admit that subtlety had escaped me.

Isn't part of the NAFTA package a prohibition of local governments instituting environmental or labor laws more restrictive than a "business-friendly" North American standard? Is this an historical repeat? Instead of being dragged back as chattel, the workers get to continue in place. It's illegal for the wage slaves to escape the conditions and the actual geography is irrelevant. This looks like a similar result on a stream-lined model.
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