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Surge Troops skipping NTC before deployment

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Surge Troops skipping NTC before deployment

Postby Uncle Jimbo » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:37 pm

[quote]From the Army Times

Rushed by President Bushâ??s decision to reinforce Baghdad with thousands more U.S. troops, two Army combat brigades are skipping their usual session at the Armyâ??s premier training range in California and instead are making final preparations at their home bases......

Instead of going to the National Training Center first, it imported personnel and equipment â?? even Toyota pickups like those used by Iraqi insurgents â?? from the training center at Fort Irwin for two weeks of final rehearsals that begin Wednesday.....

The main things that cannot be replicated in a home-station exercise are the vast spaces of the National Training Center, which is located in the Mojave Desert, and the weather and other environmental conditions that so closely resemble much of Iraq, Wagstaffe said.

â??Your weapon wonâ??t jam from sand at Fort Stewart,â?Â
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Postby Mike S. » Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:30 pm

Jimbo, I can't argue with your military experience. But even you admit this isn't optimal. The "embrace the suck" essay you cite admits the military is showing wear from five years of war. Forgive me if I am wrong here, but I thought the idea of morale is that everyone feels they can count on everyone else no matter what. Now it sounds like for political reasons we're dumping in recruits who arrive under a cloud of uncertainty. Surely this isn't necessary - surely the military could double what they normally pay to lure back veterans who have completed their service in Iraq, and use THEM to fill in the new troop numbers. We can be in the war or (preferably) out of the war, but we sure as hell can't be sending people to the war without fully committing to keeping them alive!

Put it this way: you've said we don't need to be fighting Rommel in the desert so this training is unnecessary. But you're the one so gung-ho to have a war with Iran!
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Postby Uncle Jimbo » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:04 pm

Mike,

Few of those deploying with these units to Iraq are fresh out of training, and overall ther experience level is high. As I wrote the difference between the training possible at NTC and their home stations, plus they would burn three weeks preparing for and recovering from a 30 day deployment. Instead they stayed at home with their families and did training that was equal to what they would have gotten, which is a net gain in most of the troops eyes.

About Iran, I am firmly against a ground war with them, and I would even hold off on any kind of major aair strikes for the time being. That is really our only trump card left, and it should be the last resort. I would favor raids or strikes against the bases in Iran that are supplying the insurgents and the Shia militia. But those should be covert and we should deny them publicly.

In addition I favor direct talks with Syria and Iran because having our professional liars lie to their professional liars can't hurt anything. Plus we can hush those saying we are not talking to them, it won't help, but we may learn something about their intentions and who knows we may even make a deal they won't break. But I doubt it.

We need to deal with Iran, but war is not the answer.

Cordially,

Uncle J
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Postby white_rabbit » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:09 pm

Uncle Jimbo wrote:
We need to deal with Iran, but war is not the answer.



That has to be the most sensible thing you have ever posted. All those lefties at the Isthmus office must be rubbing off on you.
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Postby nickled&dimed » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:30 pm

i am heartsick when i hear stories of the same soldiers serving over and over, extended stays, delayed departures, the third return, even though their family is falling apart financially or otherwise.

But the thought of sending the newest kids on the block with minimal experience and think that these inexperienced replacements will be the new fresh force that turns things around... i worry for them, and about their mission.
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Postby goofticket » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:03 am

Uncle Jimbo, join us in the National Politics forum for your take on the Walter Reed fiasco.

You have been a bit too quiet on this.

http://www.thedailypage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20187
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Re: Surge Troops skipping NTC before deployment

Postby Chuck_Schick » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:06 pm

Uncle Jimbo wrote:I imagine we will hear some wailing and gnashing of teeth about this, but let's take an objective look at what this actually means. It would be great to send all our forces through an exact simulation of what they will face in Iraq, but NTC is not a perfect model either.

Yeah, and it would be nice if we could treat those returning with severe disabilities without them having to lie in rat-infested bunkers masquerading as hospital rooms, but what are you gonna do, right?

You're a fucking brainwashed moron, Jimbo. Is there nothing you'll criticize or are you still just following orders to suck brass butt until you drop fucking dead?
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Postby Bwis53 » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:06 pm

goofticket wrote:Uncle Jimbo, join us in the National Politics forum for your take on the Walter Reed fiasco.

You have been a bit too quiet on this.

http://www.thedailypage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20187


I haven't seen many of those recruitment commercials lately, where the kid is talking to mom and pop, about
all the good things they're going to get, if they join up.

Vets aren't getting spit on, the way they were in the 60's, but they're getting a shaft anyways.
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Postby nickled&dimed » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:11 pm

the weight of this war has weighed too heavily on too few. if the president wants to send more troops, he should have a draft. Then we'll see how much fucking longer this war lasts, when 18 year olds rich and poor and middle class have to go- and everyone really supports the war with their children, and not just a freedom isn't free sticker.
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Postby Uncle Jimbo » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:22 pm

I've been pro-draft for a goodly while and I think it would be good for the country for the reasons you state as well as giving everyone a bigger stake in our freedom.

Cordially,

Uncle J
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Postby Mike S. » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:14 pm

I'm sorry, but I feel like any tolerance for a draft is intolerable, even from people who simply use it to emphasize their opposition to the war.

Problems with the draft include...

1. It's simply a way to exploit poor people to serve unwillingly as soldiers while the rich get out of it by some loophole or another --- while not even PAYING them anything for it! You can say that you don't want a college deferment, but there will be SOME loophole - Coast Guard, college/travel in another country, defense contractor job, something. Whatever it is the rich will be using it to get out of the draft long before the media ever bothers to tell you about it.

2. It's Communist (except it's meant to benefit the rich instead of the poor). That doesn't matter nearly as much in Vietnam but it's still an ideological vulnerability.

3. It puts cowards, idlers, drug addicts, and criminals into combat, so that other soldiers can't trust anybody. They can't trust anything is going to happen the way it's supposed to, which should be the definition of poor morale.

4. As formerly done, it means sending lots of people for short tours - instead of seasoned veterans you have an endless stream of raw recruits getting killed too easily.

5. If the cost-cutting intent of the draft is serious, it means committing to decades of underfunded dilapidated VA hospital care to match, for all those extra people churned through the system on short tours.

6. It means that the thoughtful and conscientious draftee will wonder whether it is truly better to shoot the enemy, who had no particular issue with him, than to frag his officer, who wants to send him into mortal danger against his will.
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Genuine Draft

Postby Leoburt » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:52 pm

I'd like to see a draft a la Israel or Switzerland. There should be a choice between military service and some other alternative for conscientious objectors, but everyone should have to do two years sometime between 18 and 25. I think it'd give people a longer-term stake in the well-being of our armed forces, and also make people think more carefully about sending kids off to war.
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Re: Genuine Draft

Postby Mike S. » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:57 am

Leoburt wrote:I'd like to see a draft a la Israel or Switzerland. There should be a choice between military service and some other alternative for conscientious objectors, but everyone should have to do two years sometime between 18 and 25. I think it'd give people a longer-term stake in the well-being of our armed forces, and also make people think more carefully about sending kids off to war.


You know where you run into these Israeli and Swiss kids? Grad school. It's one reason why American colleges get so many foreign students. Sometimes you read a news article about how a grad student or even a young professor had to go back to (some country) for a week to try to get his visa renewed and he ends up getting drafted into the army because our embassy wasn't fast enough.

In other words... there's always a loophole for a certain class of people.

Those countries also admit "service" as a more general alternative than just conscientious objectors, because many people really aren't meant to be soldiers.
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