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USS Liberty:What happened?

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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Dec 28, 2009 11:24 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:Both of you refused to post anything historically accurate...

Dude, the reason I told Leaver not to bother with you is that in the past, I have, and you don't listen, or even acknowledge it.

This is also the reason why I'm not going to get sucked into doing it again. It's a complete waste of time. You are not interested in discussion -- you know all the facts and have all the answers already.


Dude, when that happened, I was fresh off of getting attacked by over a dozen or so people for months who ended up being dead wrong in many ways.


Lemme get this straight: You posted intentionally controversial things on an Internet forum and then were so overwhelmed by the responses that you became unable to read links and admit that the facts as you presented them, while not necessarily wrong, were only part of a much larger story?
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby Lily » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:08 pm

The Arab-Israeli conflict has a very l-o-n-g history.

Wikipedia has a really good description of the historical events:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab%E2%80 ... i_conflict

"...The conflict involves the establishment of the Zionist movement and the subsequent creation of the modern State of Israel in territory regarded by the Jewish people as their historical homeland, and by the Pan-Arab movement as belonging to the Palestinians...

"In the late 19th century, under the banner of a movement called Zionism, many European Jews began purchasing swamps and other desert land from the Ottoman sultan and his agents. Theodore Herzl, the founder of the movement, appealed to the Ottomans as a way to raise tax revenues and to modernize the relatively sparsely populated and barren land. At that time, the entire city of Jerusalem was contained in its tiny walled area and only had a few tens of thousands of inhabitants. Under the Zionists, collective farms, known as kibbutzim, were established, and cities were founded, such as Tel Aviv. Generally, at first, the Arabs welcomed the Zionists with their standard of living, education, capital, and jobs. Many Arabs moved into the region, matching the increase in Jews from Europe.

In 1917, the British government issued the Balfour Declaration, which... viewed favourably "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." ... however, the declaration caused great disquiet in the Arab world. After the war, the area came under British rule as the British Mandate of Palestine.

By the 1920s, the Jewish and Arab populations had grown hostile to each other and acts of violence persisted from both sides of the conflict.

...By 1931, 17 percent of the population of Palestine were Jews, an increase of six percent since 1922. Jewish immigration increased soon after the Nazis came to power in Germany, causing the Jewish population in Palestine to double. Palestinian Arabs saw this rapid influx of Jewish immigrants as a threat to their homeland and their identity as a people. Moreover, Jewish policies of purchasing land and prohibiting the employment of Arabs in Jewish-owned industries and farms greatly angered the Palestinian Arab communities.

In response to Arab pressure, the British Mandate authorities greatly reduced the number of Jewish immigrants to Palestine... As a consequence, most Jewish entrants to Palestine were illegal... Following several failed attempts to solve the problem diplomatically, the British asked the newly formed United Nations for help. On 15 May 1947 the UN appointed a committee... After five weeks of in-country study, the commission recommended creating a partitioned state with separate territories for the Jews and the Arabs in Palestine. This "two state solution" was accepted with resolution 181 by the UN General Assembly in November 1947 by 33 votes to 13 with 10 abstentions. The Arab states, which constituted the Arab League, voted against. On the ground, Arab and Jewish Palestinians were fighting openly to control strategic positions in the region. Several major atrocities were committed by both sides.

On May 14, 1948, one day before the end of the British Mandate of Palestine, Israel declared its independence and sovereignty on the portion partitioned... for the Jewish state. The next day, the Arab League reiterated officially their opposition to the "two-state solution" in a letter to the UN. That day, the armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Iraq invaded the territory partitioned for the Arab state, thus starting the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. The...Israeli Defense Force repulsed the Arab nations from part of the occupied territories, thus extending its borders beyond the original... partition.

Prior to and during this conflict, 711,000 Palestinians Arabs fled their original lands to become Palestinian refugees...

"...Before.. the declaration of the State of Israel in May 1948, several Arab countries adopted discriminatory measures against their local Jewish populations...Jews were deprived of citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized. As a result, a large number of Jews were forced to emigrate from Arab lands... Overall, about 850,000 Jews had left the Arab World by the early 1970s (according to official Arab documentation), with many of them leaving their property behind.

As a result of Israel's victory in its 1948 war of independence, any Arabs caught on the wrong side of the cease-fire line were unable to return to their homes in what became Israel. Likewise, any Jews on the West Bank or in Gaza were exiled from their property and homes to Israel...Today's Palestinian refugees are the descendants of those who left..."

That's how this sticky mess all started.

Again according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_%28AGTR-5%29

"On the afternoon of June 8, 1967, while in international waters off the Sinai Peninsula, Liberty was attacked and damaged by Israeli aircraft and gunboats; 34 crewmen were killed and 173 wounded. Israel claimed that the ship had been identified as an Egyptian vessel... as Israel was at war with Egypt at the time, and that an Egyptian ship had previously shelled the Israeli-held Egyptian city of El Arish. Israel paid $12 million in reparations to the families of the dead. Separate investigations carried out by Israel and the United States concluded that the attack had been a mistake."

"She was escorted to Valletta, Malta, by units of the Sixth Fleet and was given temporary repairs. After the repairs were completed, Liberty returned to the United States on July 27, 1967. She was decommissioned and stricken from the Naval Vessel Register on June 28, 1968. She was laid up in the Atlantic Reserve Fleet of Norfolk until December 1970, when she was transferred to the Maritime Administration for disposal. In 1973, she was sold for scrapping to the Boston Metals Company of Baltimore, Maryland."
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby Lily » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:33 pm

[quote="jonnygothispen"]Here's a few things I found about Israel's attack on the USS Liberty...Those involved are STILL trying to get a confession from Israel over this.."
--------------------
June 2 1967 a Soviet destroyer was cutting in and out of the 6th Fleet carrier formation who were monitoring Israel and Arab countries who had their armed forces on alert. "Possible" submarine sitings continued and it appears tensions were extremely high.

The following is from the Navy.mil web site:
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/navy_legacy_hr.asp?id=71

"At about 1400 local time, on 8 June 1967, the technical research ship USS Liberty was attacked by Israeli torpedo boats and jet fighters, approximately 15 miles north of the Sinai port of El Arish, in international waters. She had been in position to assist in communications between United States diplomatic posts in the Mideast and to aid in the evacuation of American dependents from the area if necessary."

"However, the first word that reached America and the Department of Defense in Washington gave no indication as to the identity of the attackers. America's flight deck came alive. In a matter of minutes, F- 4B Phantom interceptors were in the air to ward off any possible attack against task force units. At the same time, bombs and rockets moved from the magazines deep within the ship to the flight deck. Four Douglas A-4 Skyhawk attack bombers were loaded and launched together with fighter cover. As the planes sped towards Liberty's position, however word was received from Tel Aviv that the attackers had been Israeli and that the attack had been made in error. The planes outbound from America were recalled with their ordnance still in the racks."

With all that firepower available there is no way the Navy would have allowed the Israeli attackers to survive if it wasn't believed it was a tragic error. There is no conspiracy here.
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:45 pm

The planes we deployed were sent to nuke Egypt. Israel took the markings off their planes when they attacked the Liberty.

But the true problem withe the story you present is that Israel monitored the USS Liberty for over 8 hours before they attacked it. There are numerous US officials in agreement that it was a deliberate attack as well. William Odom, Rear Admiral Kidd, Dean Rusk, and more. As Moore said, he personally witnessed McNamara's calling back 2 attempts by the US Navy to help US sailors on the Liberty. The evidence showing Israel attacked deliberately is overwhelming, to be honest about it.

http://www.gtr5.com

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."-- CIA Director Richard Helms

"The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack...was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew.... It was our shared belief. . .that the attack. . .could not possibly have been an accident.I am certain that the Israeli pilots [and] their superiors. . .were well aware that the ship was American."-- Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, US Navy (retired), senior legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry (who admitted several years ago that they were directed to cover-up the attack)

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson

"The highest officials of the [Johnson] administration, including the President, believed it 'inconceivable' that Israel's 'skilled' defense forces could have committed such a gross error."-- Lyndon Johnson's biographer Robert Dallek in Flawed Giant, Oxford University Press, 1998, pp. 430-31)

"That the attack was deliberate "just wasn't a disputed issue" within the National Security Agency" -- Former NSA Director retired Army Lieutenant General William Odom on 3 March 2003 in an interview for Naval Institute Proceedings
Last edited by jonnygothispen on Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:12 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: Lemme get this straight: You posted intentionally controversial things on an Internet forum and then were so overwhelmed by the responses that you became unable to read links and admit that the facts as you presented them, while not necessarily wrong, were only part of a much larger story?


I'm looking for a way to prevent attacks on America, not for a way to excuse behavior on either side. The only solution I can come up with is to have both sides follow International laws. If the UN was good enough for Israel to declare stolen land theirs, then it should be good enough to impose laws now. I don't see the truth as controversial.

But we have created a monster that openly opposes our President at will despite the billions of welfare we've given them, and that we're bogged down in 2 wars because of our support of their crimes in the region-with help from a misguided freak, BU$H.
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:42 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:I'm looking for a way to prevent attacks on America, not for a way to excuse behavior on either side.

So you accept at face value the idea that there was a single cause for 9/11 at that support of Israel was it?
And the way to stop similar attacks is to appease the people doing the attacking?

Accepting the word of crazy nutjobs as to what makes them do crazy nutjob things is... well... kinda nutsy-crazy, doncha think? Do you similarly accept at face value Charles Manson's explanations for his actions? Or the reasons given by school shooters?
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:55 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:I'm looking for a way to prevent attacks on America, not for a way to excuse behavior on either side.

So you accept at face value the idea that there was a single cause for 9/11 at that support of Israel was it?
And the way to stop similar attacks is to appease the people doing the attacking?

Accepting the word of crazy nutjobs as to what makes them do crazy nutjob things is... well... kinda nutsy-crazy, doncha think? Do you similarly accept at face value Charles Manson's explanations for his actions? Or the reasons given by school shooters?


Our support of Israel's actions is the primary motivation for the 9/11 attacks according to the 9/11 inquiry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7EB1FxE ... xt_from=PL

Asking people on both sides to follow International law is hardly "appeasing" anyone, and Palestinians did not commit the 9/11 attacks. The unjust attack on Iraq was and is the poster child for more recruits for al Qaeda along with the illegal torture program.

I'm suggesting that we find a way to prevent future attacks by backing away and imposing International laws on both countries. That's all.
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby Uncle Fester » Thu Dec 31, 2009 1:37 am

The "blame Israel" argument is a canard touted by simpletons. Islam was born a brotherhood, a way of keeping marauding tribesman organized and united while they waged war against those weaker than themselves. In many ways, it resembled the modern street gang.

If Muslims don't have the Jews, they'll stay busy killing Christians, gays, atheists, other Muslims (Sunni vs. Shiite) --it doesn't really matter. Islam is a warrior religion, built for warriors.

This article lays it out better than most:

http://www.catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby jonnygothispen » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:11 pm

Giving Israel credit for what they're actually doing isn't "blaming them." But you're blaming me for pointing out an uncomfortable truth. All I did was point out what's going on over there. Does Noam Chomsky "blame Israel" too? Or is he just pointing out the significant reasons for the continuation? Naomi Klein, Bill Moyer, Jimmy Carter, Robert Fisk, Edith Zertal and Akiva Eldar's in their book Lords of the Land pinpointing Israel's actions that caused this...are they "blaming" or giving credit where credit is due.

Simply brushing off the debate as "blame" doesn't work except on an emotional level. There are specific causes.

As far as murderous societies, didn't we just bomb the crap out of a population for resources instead of religion? What's that make us?
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby Uncle Fester » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:03 am

SHAH HASAN KHEL, Pakistan – Tribal elders in a Pakistani village where a suicide car bomber killed nearly 100 people insisted Saturday that residents will keep defying the Taliban, even as the bloodshed laid bare the risks facing the citizens' militias that make up a key piece of Pakistan's arsenal against extremism.

The New Year's Day attack on the northwest village of Shah Hasan Khel was one of the deadliest in a surge of bombings that has killed more than 600 across Pakistan since October. Police believe the attacker meant to detonate his 550 pounds (250 kilograms) of explosives at a meeting of tribesmen who supervise an anti-Taliban militia. Instead, the blast went off at a nearby outdoor volleyball court, killing at least 96 people.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100102/ap_ ... s_pakistan


And these Muslims slaughtering other Muslims at volleyball games relates to Israel how again?
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby Uncle Fester » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:28 am

What's the matter, Johnny, cat got your tongue? Check out the "Religion of Peace" in the last ten days, their way of celebrating the holiday season. But I guess Muslims killing and maiming fellow Muslims at funerals, gyms, and food tents is all Israel's fault.

Meanwhile, non-outraged liberals are busy not speaking out, and the Annie Gaylor types are out suing small towns over nativity displays.

Date Country City Killed Injured Description
2010.01.03 Pakistan Waziristan 2 5 A bombing and separate rocket attack leave two people dead.
2010.01.03 Iraq Tal Abta 3 0 Three road construction workers are gunned down by Muslim terrorists.
2010.01.03 Pakistan Bajaur 2 4 Two tribal elders are blown to bits by a Taliban roadside bomb.
2010.01.03 Pakistan Hangu 4 2 A Taliban roadside bomb ends the lives of four people.
2010.01.02 Iraq Mosul 2 0 Two local cops are gunned down by Sunni terrorists.
2010.01.02 Somalia Dhusamareb 47 150 al-Shabaab Islamists assault a small town. At least four dozen people are killed in the fighting.
2010.01.02 Iraq Baghdad 1 21 Jihadi bombers take out a civilian and injure two dozen others.
2010.01.02 Pakistan Orakzai 3 0 Three civilian village guards are ambushed and killed by Islamic militants.
2010.01.02 Afghanistan Nimroz 5 6 Five civilians are killed when Sunni terrorists bomb their pickup truck.
2010.01.01 Pakistan Shah Hason Khel 105 100 Children are amply represented among over one hundred spectators massacred at a volleyball tournament by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
2009.12.31 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two civilians riding a motorbike are shot to death by Islamic militants.
2009.12.31 Afghanistan Uruzgan 6 0 Six civilians are beheaded by Islamic hardliners.
2009.12.31 Pakistan Kalat 2 2 Two oil truck drivers are shot to death by Muslim radicals.
2009.12.30 Afghanistan Khost 8 6 Eight American civilians are murdered by a Shahid suicide bomber at a gymnasium.
2009.12.30 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two volunteers guarding teachers are taken down in a Mujahideen bombing.
2009.12.30 Afghanistan Kandahar 5 0 A female reporter is among five Canadians killed by a Taliban roadside bomb.
2009.12.30 Iraq Khalis 7 25 Dedicated Sunnis bomb a Shia religious festival, leaving seven dead.
2009.12.30 Iraq Ramadi 27 105 Twin suicide blasts take down over twenty-five Iraqis and leave over one hundred others with injuries, including lost limbs.
2009.12.30 India Baramulla 4 0 Hizb-ul-Mujahideen gunmen open up on four Indian cops at point-blank range, leaving all four dead.
2009.12.30 Pakistan Bajaur 1 0 A tribal elder is brutally murdered by the Taliban and dropped by the roadside.
2009.12.29 Afghanistan Heart 1 2 A terrorist in an Afghan army uniform opens fire on three unsuspecting NATO soldiers, killing one.
2009.12.29 Iraq Tal Massoud 5 0 Four people are shot to death and one beheaded by suspected al-Qaeda elements.
2009.12.29 Pakistan Lahore 2 0 A man slits his daughter's throat, and stabs her lover to death, over a suspected illicit affair.
2009.12.29 Iraq Baghdad 4 18 Two woman are among four Iraqis murdered in two Jihad attacks.
2009.12.28 Pakistan Orakzai 9 6 Taliban hardliners assault a village, killing nine defense volunteers.
2009.12.28 Pakistan Karachi 43 83 More than forty people in a religious procession are sent straight to Allah by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
2009.12.28 Iraq Mosul 2 0 Jihadi gunmen take down two cement workers.
2009.12.28 Somalia Gedo 1 0 Islamic militia are suspected of murdered a humanitarian worker in his home.
2009.12.28 Afghanistan Badghis 2 3 Two local cops are murdered in a Taliban ambush.
2009.12.28 Nigeria Bauchi 3 12 At least three security forces are killed during attacks by a local Islamist sect.
2009.12.28 Pakistan Chamarkand 2 5 Two local soldiers are killed in a Taliban rocket attack on their checkpoint.
2009.12.27 Iraq Touz Khormato 5 25 Five Shia pilgrims are blown to bits by Sunni terrorists.
2009.12.27 Iran Tehran 9 60 Basij militia and Islamic state police fire into a crowd of protesters, killing at least nine.
2009.12.27 Pakistan Muzaffarabad 15 100 A Shahid suicide bomber blows himself up at a rival mosque, taking at least fifteen innocents with him.
2009.12.27 Pakistan Sadda 6 0 Islamic fundamentalists blow up a family home, killing six occupants, including five young children.
2009.12.27 Thailand Yala 2 1 Islamists shoot two men to death as they are riding a motorcycle.
2009.12.26 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A man is murdered in front of his home by Muslim separatists.
2009.12.26 Pakistan Karachi 0 26 Shiite radicals are suspected of detonating a roadside bomb that injures some twenty-six people at a funeral.
2009.12.26 Iraq Baghdad 6 22 Two bombs, one near a tent distributing food to Shia pilgrims, leave six Iraqis dead.
2009.12.25 Iraq Baghdad 10 51 Ten Shiite pilgrims are murdered in three separate bombing attacks by sectarian rivals.
2009.12.25 Iraq Mosul 3 0 Three unarmed census workers are shot to death in cold blood by Sunni insurgents.
2009.12.25 Pakistan Peshawar 2 0 Islamists gun down two local cops.
2009.12.25 Algeria Tizi Ouzou 1 2 A local soldier is murdered by fundamentalist bombers.
2009.12.25 Pakistan Kalar Kahar 0 60 About sixty Christians are injured when a Muslim mob attacks them during Christmas prayers.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:42 pm

Uncle Fester wrote: And these Muslims slaughtering other Muslims at volleyball games relates to Israel how again?
Using your mode of relativity, we should bomb Gary Indiana because black people rioted in LA after the Rodney King verdict.
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:43 pm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/margolis12.html
The attack on 'Liberty' was fading into obscurity until last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book... Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high overhead the 'Liberty,' electronically recorded the attack. The US aircraft crew provides evidence that the Israeli pilots knew full well that they were attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.

Why did Israel try to sink a naval vessel of its benefactor and ally? Most likely because 'Liberty's' intercepts flatly contradicted Israel's claim, made at the war's beginning on 5 June, that Egypt had attacked Israel, and that Israel's massive air assault on three Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began the war by a devastating, Pearl-Harbor style surprise attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed their entire air forces.
Another thumbtack in the coffin...
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:24 pm

The most revealing article on what we knew when it happened I've read: http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/ ... full.story
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Re: USS Liberty:What happened?

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:50 am

jonnygothispen wrote:I think it's interesting how Israel cites a "right" to commit genocide to steal land they abandoned, by using a book written a couple thousand years ago where a fictional God mass murders babies, orders the rapes of women, and "loved the world so much..." that he killed nearly everyone in it in a big flood,


"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

jonny, I don't know, but something tells me that the Jews don't rely on New Testament passages very often.
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