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A very disturbing story

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: A very disturbing story

Postby eriedasch » Thu May 21, 2009 3:24 pm

GODDOG wrote:
Chuck_Schick wrote:I'm a bass player, dipshit.

umm...there is a such a thing called bass GUITAR. and to claim you are a player...pause for laughter...I've known dead men's hearts that can keep a better beat or baseline than you ever could. Has been was too nice...never was, is more like it.


Chuck_Schick wrote:It's spelled "Shinky."

either way you still suck.

Chuck_Schick wrote:But way to take an anonymous cheap shot, pussy. Too bad I don't let noisy little nits like you ruffle my feathers or you might really have something going there, Champ.

ummm....ruffled them enough to get you to respond out of emotion and not logic there, champ.

GODDOG, more often than many out here I agree with your side of the issue and you often bring up some great points. However then you resort to this kind of bullshit and it ruins any credibility you ever had in my book. Not that you care what I think, but I probably speak for many others.

Man, I thought I was going off-topic by bringing up medicial marijuana, but you've got nothing better than to criticize Schick's bass playing in a former band?

BTW, just saying guitar does not imply bass. Similar, but quite different instruments.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby Chuck_Schick » Thu May 21, 2009 3:32 pm

Yeah, Dogshit, when you have something germane to add to the conversation, let us know.

In the meantime, yeah, James Jamerson I ain't. I'm perfectly comfortable in my suckitude on four strings, thanks. But let me know when your band is playing so I can bask in your musical genius. Maybe you can teach me a thing or two other than what a petty little bitch you are.

Now would you kindly fuck the hell off so the adults can have a conversation here, Junior?
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby MeLurkyLongTime » Thu May 21, 2009 5:38 pm

GODDOG If a 13 year old kid consented to having sex with and adult that adult would be considered a predator. Would you truly say that because the 13 year old consented that the sex was ok? The kid isn't old enough to make these kind of decisions that is what parents or guardians are for. If 13 year olds are so fucking wise why doesn't our society bounce their offspring from the house at age 12? Get a job already kiddo!
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby GODDOG » Thu May 21, 2009 7:03 pm

eriedasch wrote:GODDOG, more often than many out here I agree with your side of the issue and you often bring up some great points. However then you resort to this kind of bullshit and it ruins any credibility you ever had in my book. Not that you care what I think, but I probably speak for many others.

Man, I thought I was going off-topic by bringing up medicial marijuana, but you've got nothing better than to criticize Schick's bass playing in a former band?

BTW, just saying guitar does not imply bass. Similar, but quite different instruments.

BTW...Erie...go back a few post and see who started this back and forth. It was Shctick the Dick. I was having a discussion w/ TA and asshat chimes in calling names and claiming I claimed to be an expert. Yeah...I went over the line and brought up Chuckies musical talents. Thought he could take it. wrong I am. What other forons write does matter or we wouldn't be here correct? Lay blame on the right asshole is all I ask.
Last edited by GODDOG on Thu May 21, 2009 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby GODDOG » Thu May 21, 2009 7:15 pm

Chuck_Schick wrote:Yeah, Dogshit, when you have something germane to add to the conversation, let us know.

In the meantime, yeah, James Jamerson I ain't. I'm perfectly comfortable in my suckitude on four strings, thanks. But let me know when your band is playing so I can bask in your musical genius. Maybe you can teach me a thing or two other than what a petty little bitch you are.

Now would you kindly fuck the hell off so the adults can have a conversation here, Junior?

You started this shit bitch... now own up! Or do you think I should bend over for your omnipotence? You made tons of assumptions about me and made 2+2 = 23. You...started w/ the name calling and belittling...I just don't play fair...you whining baby! And about your playing...it was a god damn joke! lighten up! You start a fire then you act like a savior... rescuing everyone...nice jujitsu there, Bud.
To Lurkies point...no I don't believe every 13yr. old can consent to sex or other life changing decisions. I was merely bringing up the point that we try 11 and 12 yr. olds for murder in adult court and other crimes as well...quite the leap to assume I think 13 year old kids are adults. I was reflecting how society as a whole has treated kids in the past.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby white_rabbit » Thu May 21, 2009 8:31 pm

...huh...go figure...this thread took an odd and slightly disturbing u-turn.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby snoqueen » Thu May 21, 2009 11:20 pm

It sure did take a turn.

I'll go back to the original question (useless endeavor, but hey) and throw all my credibility on this forum into the toilet and say I think the government should stay out of forcing mainstream medical treatments on people, even on kids.

I have lived on the planet long enough to see some of these treatments work. And I've seen some of them fail: horribly, irretrievably, hideously, painfully, and yes, pointlessly. I am willing to concede mainstream medicine probably has its heart in the right place and offers the best it has at the moment, but the results are not always desirable.

Evansville's posting is correct -- these are very difficult choices. But we must protect them as CHOICES, even when someone's religion is weird and even when the chooser is going against statistical chances and even when the chooser seems dumb as a stump or willfully ignorant.

We have rightly protected people's freedom of choice in educational matters (homeschooling often works brilliantly, sometimes fails dismally) and in religion (some religions seem beneficial, some are totally off the wall). We need to extend and maintain that protection to medical choice, even when it hurts the sensibilities of those who would choose otherwise.

I am not at all sure I would take the mainstream cure for some common diseases, popular and accepted as those cures are for many or most people reading here. I know I would be roundly trashed for going into detail so I won't, except to assure you I have seen the undiscussed side of some of these procedures and have reasons for my preferences. I believe this choice is a fundamental human right and I would not only leave the country to avoid being forced into unwanted medical procedures, but would also help another person or family leave the country to avoid them.

Given that we will all die, I believe it is a fundamental human right to make choices that make a person's death for a particular reason more likely. This includes silly stuff like smoking, alcohol, and overeating, but it also includes serious stuff like declining medical treatment for oneself and one's loved ones. People don't make these choices lightly, even dippy people.

This is not child abuse, it is a family with perfectly serious personal beliefs that are way out of the mainstream. Let's not confuse REAL child abuse (the Irish story) with the issue of this poor weird family who prefer to lose their son instead of putting him through a hideous procedure that in a hundred years will shock readers the same way arsenic cures and bloodletting horrify us today.

Just remember today's "standard treatment" is tomorrow's medical horror story. Forcing electroshock treatments on the mentally ill was common practice only a few decades ago, though the treatments of the time were occasionally permanently debilitating (I know -- someone in my family had them in the 50s). We need to have great respect for the right to refuse "standard protocol" in the light of history.

I don't agree with this family, but I support them very very strongly on principle. Forced medical treatment is not the road we should be on. Unfortunately, it's these weird cases that make case law and it's hard to argue from weird cases.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby butters » Thu May 21, 2009 11:48 pm

GODDOG wrote:Do you know what chemo-therapy even is? Let me explain...
it is the poisoning of the body. Creating a toxic environment within the body so as to kill the cancer cells, the weak ones at least, and by doing so causing the body to be so toxic the cancer cannot attack healthy cells. Poisoning. It is not hyperbole. Unpleasant side effects? puking for hours on end...unable to eat...constant headaches...on the verge of death there G.

Close.
Cancer cells do not attack normal cells directly. Because of their uncontrolled growth and other characteristics, cancer cells are able to starve normal cells by outcompeting them for nutrients, kindof like a parasite.

The primary purpose of chemotherapy is NOT to poison the body. Chemotherapy targets rapidly dividing cells such as cancer. However in addition to killing cancer cells, chemo can also kill other dividing cells--hair follicles, skin, bone marrow, mouth, digestive lining, etc. That is why a patient may feel nauseous, lose their taste, lose their hair, have dry skin, or many other possible side-effects. Hopefully the body (and mind) can withstand the treatment long enough for the chemo to kill off the cancerous cells. Systemic toxicity is not required.

But your main point is well taken.
It's not a fun process at all.

As for the topic:
People believe in all sorts of goofy shit. Normally i don't care what silly superstitions people have, but it's really hard to just give a polite smile and accept such foolishness when it endangers another person's life. And you can't say the 13-year-old is giving informed consent, considering he was brainwashed since birth and is most likely unable to make a distinction between what he wants and what his parents want.

On second thought...when human behavior doesn't make sense (and this doesn't), it's the $$$$.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby evansvillehousewife » Sun May 24, 2009 12:08 am

Hear hear, Snoqueen.

Atheistic humanist spritiualist I may be, I will still exploit the name Christian Scientist to keep my daughter from receiving the experimental ( and dangerous) Gardasil vaccine.

Yet, I become enraged when I think of the Jehovah's Witness who sat at my table and told me she would cheerfully let her child bleed to death because said child would be in paradise, where 'even the lions eat grass."

Neumann has been found guilty. So what does this say for Jehovah's witnesses who lose children due to blood loss? Or women through childbirth with excessive blood loss? Is this going to change the legal protection of treatment through prayer?
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby peripat » Sun May 24, 2009 12:05 pm

Oh crap...This society or political unit or whatever does not give parents the right to kill their children- all libertarian views aside- if the outcome is likely to be life with medical intervention and likely to be death without it society is going to come down on the side of life.
You can refuse medical treatment for yourself-but not for your children.
Other things you cannot do-
Marry off your minor children or sell them for drugs (both in the news a lot lately)
Contract with someone to murder you (or maim you or cook & eat your buttocks or whatever) however airtight the contract, it isn't legal
There really aren't many absolute rights
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby towanda » Mon May 25, 2009 5:23 am

I went to the Nemenhah Band's web site. For $250, they will "spiritually adopt" you and then you can enroll in their courses to become a Real Native American Medicine Man or Woman.

Yikes.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby bleurose » Wed May 27, 2009 12:03 pm

Before I start, for Chuck, I am not an oncologist, but I am a veterinary pathologist so do know some things about oncology. Hence my comments, so you can read them with that grain of salt.

If this is a lymphoma, some of those (it really is a varied family of cancers) respond quite well to chemo and can be placed into some fairly long term remissions or even the odd 'cure'. Other types not only don't respond well to chemo, it's like you really pissed them off and they seem to get even more aggressive. Hard to know which type this poor kid has, but it sounds like it has come out of remission. Once out of remission, it becomes exponentially harder to get the beast back into remission. Basically, what appears to happen (best theory I've studied so far anyway) is that not all of the neoplastic cells are necessarily killed by the chemo. Can happen because of genetic variations within single cells which confer chemo resistance, can happen because the chemo didn't go on long enough, other reasons. Best case scenario though is that the chemo route chosen is effective on all of the particular neoplastic cells in a tumor. Or almost all because natural defense mechanisms do play a role and can hopefully take out the left overs. So when the neoplasm "comes out of remission" the cells that are growing now are more often than not resistant to the chemo regimen being used. Or now have new mutations which the original chemo drugs did not address. Why it is important for some of these cancers to follow the chemo schedule laid out or you could screw any chance of a long term remission/cure.

That said, some cancers are just not amenable to the treatments we currently have; sarcomas are notorious for being difficult to treat (and lymphomas are in the sarcoma category). I quite understand that failed chemo is ugly for everyone. I do feel for this kid and his family and I am personally uncomfortable with forcing treatment on people. But I also see that here, this kid is not making an informed decision and he is a minor. So this one is tough for me. As I imagine it is for them and doubly so because from what I can glean, i don't think this family has the information needed to make the best choice. And who knows, the best choice could be to do no more. I can't really tell.

Failed treatments are one way that oncologists are able to study the biology of various cancers - the genes of individual cancer cells, what is 'wrong' with the DNA in an individual cell that allows it to be a neoplastic cell. And we still have a long, long way to go. I don't know what I would do in this situation or even personally. Probably given my occupation, I would want the oncologists to learn as much as possible from my cancer. If it was a hard one to treat, I would probably let them try an experimental treatment just to see if anything can be learned. But that's me.

And that's my two cents.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby TAsunder » Wed May 27, 2009 4:31 pm

Huh? His cancer responded to treatment pretty obviously, so I'm not sure what the point of some of your post was. It's not hard to know what type of cancer he has - it's hodgkins, and it responds very well to treatment in general as well.

And the parents supposedly have finally agreed to resume the treatment that was working. Apparently the excruciating pain he is feeling may be the symptom of a problem after all.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby Violet_Skye » Thu May 28, 2009 1:06 am

I think she explained it pretty well. 1) Hodgkins is a lymphoma, which she stated falls in the sarcoma category, which she explained is notoriously hard to treat. 2) Interrupting the chemotherapy regimen prescribed for the child has probably considerably lessened his chances of successful chemo in the future, a scenario she also described. The cancerous cells become stronger and more resistant because the regimen was not completed. The cells learn new ways to survive chemo. 3) I don't know what I would do at this point either. The parent(s) never should have allowed the treatments to stop in the first place. Hodgkins treatment has a very high success rate if completed properly. Now that they've messed things up by taking him away and wasting all this time, allowing the tumors to regrow, their actions may have doomed any 'choice' anyone had about it. 4) I personally know two Hodgkins survivors. One was diagnosed as a 17 year old. Through chemotherapy and radiation, it was put into remission three times over the course of the next 15 years or so...the last return of the disease nearly killed him. Yet he continued to fight, and today he is fifty years old, strong, vibrant, healthy, and has been cancer free for a long time. Yes, I have heard in excruciating detail the horrors of the chemotherapy he endured, and a less mentally strong person may not have been able to get through it. The point is, though, as barbaric as it may be or how future generations may be shocked by it, chemo is the best chance for allowing a normal span of life for patients with this particular type of disease at this juncture in human history. 5) My final point is that in my opinion, a 13 year old should not be allowed to make life and death decisions for him or herself. The prefrontal cortex of the brain, the decision-making center, is among the last of the brain's areas to completely develop, finishing around age twenty five. As long as the odds are better for survival with treatment than without, the treatment must be provided, religions or magical beliefs notwithstanding. Especially a child with limited understanding of the issues and facts, such as this boy, should be protected by intelligent, caring adults so that he can have the chance to become one someday, too.
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Re: A very disturbing story

Postby Peanutbutter » Thu May 28, 2009 8:27 am

The kid isn't old enough to make these kind of decisions that is what parents or guardians are for. If 13 year olds are so fucking wise why doesn't our society bounce their offspring from the house at age 12?


My final point is that in my opinion, a 13 year old should not be allowed to make life and death decisions for him or herself. The prefrontal cortex of the brain, the decision-making center, is among the last of the brain's areas to completely develop, finishing around age twenty five.


I agree. Which is why parental consent should be required if a child wants an abortion.
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