MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Friday, October 24, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 49.0° F  Fog/Mist
Collapse Photo Bar

Out of Iraq

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby atron67 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:32 am

I have no idea why Obama wanted to stay. He didn't explain. because he thinks we are a helpful force there? or maybe because he thinks once we leave, Iraq won't do as we say anymore? But it was clear that there were repeated offers by "washington" to keep troops in Iraq, however the Iraqi Gov't effectively refused.

While I don't particularly blame Obama for the problems in Iraq, I don't see him trying to do anything to achieve my goals, (i.e. end the wars/bombing campaigns) and so while I believe this to be a good turn for the US, I don't believe it happened because of Obama, but in spite of the American Gov't at large. I don't think Obama is particularly against ending the war, but Obama is clearly not a dove, considering his massive bombing campaign in half a dozen countries.

Since I don't believe any of these actions make the US safer, (often the opposite) I will not offer support over Obama's foreign policy agenda.

I think its fair to say, "it ended, obama is president, I'm happy w/ obama" I just don't agree
atron67
Member
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby wack wack » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:34 am

atron67 wrote:I have no idea why Obama wanted to stay. He didn't explain. because he thinks we are a helpful force there? or maybe because he thinks once we leave, Iraq won't do as we say anymore? But it was clear that there were repeated offers by "washington" to keep troops in Iraq, however the Iraqi Gov't effectively refused.

While I don't particularly blame Obama for the problems in Iraq, I don't see him trying to do anything to achieve my goals, (i.e. end the wars/bombing campaigns) and so while I believe this to be a good turn for the US, I don't believe it happened because of Obama, but in spite of the American Gov't at large. I don't think Obama is particularly against ending the war, but Obama is clearly not a dove, considering his massive bombing campaign in half a dozen countries.

Since I don't believe any of these actions make the US safer, (often the opposite) I will not offer support over Obama's foreign policy agenda.

I think its fair to say, "it ended, obama is president, I'm happy w/ obama" I just don't agree


Thank you for responding. As suspected, your assertion that Obama was "trying to stay" in Iraq is completely baseless. So many instances of what you do or don't "believe," do or don't "think," with absolutely no foundation other than what you want to believe.

Your claim seems to be that the loudly, proudly anti-dumb war Obama is trying to stay in Iraq for some reason that is important enough to alienate a large portion of the American populace, but not important enough to risk legal or physical jeopardy for the relatively small number of Americans left there under Obama's "trying to stay" plan.

I'll tell you what I believe, based on the ample evidence you've provided: I don't think you ever intended to support Obama, no matter what he says or does. Your entire angle is a ruse.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3157
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby gargantua » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:38 am

One plausible reason for Obama to have considered staying in Iraq (I don't think anyone really "wants to") is to protect against Iranian influence. Iran can cause a lot of trouble, and the lack of a U.S. presence certainly wouldn't deter them from trying to cause trouble.

While not the same, it is somewhat similar to the U.S. maintaining forces in Europe after WWII to deter Soviet aggression.

I'm glad the troops are coming home. I hope Iraq survives as a democracy, but I don't think leaving some of our troops there for several decades is a price I'm willing to pay.
gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4174
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:49 am

ilikebeans wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Its a new world, I believe in the Arab Spring.

Hypothetical: Assuming we had never invaded, what are the chances Iraq would have been caught up in Arab Spring anyway, without us spending a trillion buckaroos on the place?

That is really hard to know, although I'm sure Iraq would have been part of it. As we've seen, the Arab Spring in countries with dictators having loyal armies lead to violent crack downs and civil wars. Sadaam would not have been a treat to dislodge.

Did elections in Iraq inspire the Arab Spring, or the Green Revolution in Iran? That is hard to know, certainly nobody envies what Iraq has gone through.

The invasion of Iraq was a mistake, given the costs to us and to the IRaqi people. But that does not mean it has not been a success, you can't discount the value of democracy taking hold in a key state like Iraqi.

Look at Latin America. We take for granted now that Argentina and Brazil and etc. are stable democracies. The first half of my lifetime, those places were violent hell-holes with brutal dictatorships. ITs pretty amazing, really. But another thing to note is that it takes about 20 years of crappy democracies before decent government takes shapes.

We need to patient with middle east. It will take better part of a generation to settle down.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:56 am

gargantua wrote:One plausible reason for Obama to have considered staying in Iraq (I don't think anyone really "wants to") is to protect against Iranian influence. Iran can cause a lot of trouble, and the lack of a U.S. presence certainly wouldn't deter them from trying to cause trouble.

While not the same, it is somewhat similar to the U.S. maintaining forces in Europe after WWII to deter Soviet aggression.

Sure, everyone is leary of IRanaian influence in Iraq. I don't see it as that big of a problem. Hell, Turkey has close relations with Iran. IT is only natural that IRaq will want to have warm relations and business dealing with Iran. They share a long border.

There is a strong anti-Iranian streak in Iraqis, including the Shitte, I'm not worried about them becoming a vassal state. UNLESS THE COUNTRY SHATTERS IN CIVIL WAR. Our interest is to keep Iraq from disintegrating. IT looks like we have achieved that, but it is tenuous.

BTW, all the people pining for an "end to the war": are you not concerned that WW II never ended? We still have troops in Japan, and we have been doing joint military excercises with them for 60 years.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:34 pm

Huckleby wrote:Sure, everyone is leary of IRanaian influence in Iraq. I don't see it as that big of a problem.

By claiming that Iran was involved in contracting with Mexican drug dealers to kill the Saudi Ambassador in Washington, the administration seems to be lamely fishing for a case for war against the Iranian government. The American interventionist path has not changed direction at all.
Stella_Guru
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:08 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Madsci » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:14 pm

Huckleby wrote: But another thing to note is that it takes about 20 years of crappy democracies before decent government takes shapes.

I have been waiting longer than 40 years for a decent government here in the USA.
Madsci
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1027
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:47 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby atron67 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:20 pm

wack wack, why were there offers from washington to stay in Iraq if obama is so "loudly proudly anti-dumb war"? one would think he is the one in charge of making those offers.

are you disputing that there were offers from washington to stay in Iraq?
atron67
Member
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:23 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby rabble » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:21 pm

Madsci wrote:
Huckleby wrote: But another thing to note is that it takes about 20 years of crappy democracies before decent government takes shapes.

I have been waiting longer than 40 years for a decent government here in the USA.

Um, yeah Huck. The USA I've been in has steadily deteriorated for the last several decades. Upon which countries' histories are you basing that theory?
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6306
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:38 pm

I think U.S.A. democracy is in decent shape. Even if you argue that corporations have taken over, they have done so with public acquiesence, and now we see start of a backlash. We have deadlocked government, but that reflects the people.

Brazil's transition to democracy was an ugly roller coaster.
South Africa is not going through a picnic.
Turkey took about 40 years to transition from military rule to true civilian control.

I'm trying to think of any country that didn't have a messy transition. In our own history, we went through the articles of confederation mess before constitution. Took very long to give citizenship to all.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby gargantua » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:39 pm

Huckleby wrote:
gargantua wrote:One plausible reason for Obama to have considered staying in Iraq (I don't think anyone really "wants to") is to protect against Iranian influence. Iran can cause a lot of trouble, and the lack of a U.S. presence certainly wouldn't deter them from trying to cause trouble.

While not the same, it is somewhat similar to the U.S. maintaining forces in Europe after WWII to deter Soviet aggression.


BTW, all the people pining for an "end to the war": are you not concerned that WW II never ended? We still have troops in Japan, and we have been doing joint military excercises with them for 60 years.


Yes, I am very concerned. WWII didn't end, and it resulted from WWI not ending. Based on the lessons of history, I believe your optimism is misplaced. Given the dreadful consequences, I hope you are right and I am wrong.
gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4174
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Stella_Guru » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:45 am

Huckleby wrote:BTW, all the people pining for an "end to the war": are you not concerned that WW II never ended? We still have troops in Japan, and we have been doing joint military excercises with them for 60 years.

Our Nobel Peace Prize winning President oversees a war machine larger than most of the rest of the nations of the world combined, has killer drones operating in at least six counties, and has special forces in more than 75. Hardly reported is the U.S. infiltration of the African armies of Uganda, Kenya, Ethiopia, Tanzania, Burundi, Rwanda, Mali, Chad, Niger, Benin, Botswana, Cameroon, Gabon, Zambia, Senegal, Mozambique, Ghana, Malawi, and Maurentania. Yes, I'm concerned. The investor owned media is avoiding words that are inconvenient to those who rule by scam and sword.
Stella_Guru
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1216
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:08 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Marvell » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:10 pm

Huckleby wrote:I think U.S.A. democracy is in decent shape. Even if you argue that corporations have taken over, they have done so with public acquiesence, and now we see start of a backlash. We have deadlocked government, but that reflects the people.


You're kidding, right?

Revulsion Towards Congress Reaches Historical Levels

A remarkable sense of pessimism and skepticism was apparent in question after question in the survey, which found that Congressional approval has reached a new low at 9 percent. The disapproval toward Congress has risen 22 percentage points since the beginning of the year when Republicans took control of the House.
[...]
[T]he same NYT/CBS poll shows Americans under the impression that Republicans only care about catering to the rich, and don’t have a jobs plan at all. There’s also a strong public demand for addressing economic inequalities — a desire GOP officials consider offensive at a fundamental level.


You're an astute political analyst the same way 'Joe the Plumber' is a plumber.
Marvell
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6985
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 11:28 pm
Location: At one with time and space

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:49 pm

revulsion towards congress means democracy is threatened?

democracy often produces messy results. if you want to get things done efficiently, find yourself a mussolini. the democratic government is deadlocked now because the people are deeply divided.

People may say they are mad at Republican congress in polls, but does that mean there will be Democrat sweep of congress? Don't hold your breath.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Marvell » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:58 pm

Huckleby - what the hell do you think a democracy is? In a DEMOCRACY, the voice of the PEOPLE who make up the COUNTRY is reflected by the actions of their GOVERNMENT.

If the PEOPLE are expressing an historic lack of confidence in the functioning capacity of the GOVERNMENT, is it in any meaningful way a DEMOCRACY?

Something tells me that your answer to this question will be pathetically shallow and puerile.
Marvell
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6985
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 11:28 pm
Location: At one with time and space

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 4 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar