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Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby Petro » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:59 pm

dave esmond wrote:For me to be a good neighbor I need to pay more attention in areas where the Amish might be so I don't run into a large horse drawn vehicle that is difficult but not impossible to see after dark. Just like I have to pay attention to all the other much smaller unlit and unmarked stuff that might be in the road.

For the Amish to be a good neighbor they'd have to violate a core belief that they hold central to their way of life. A belief they're willing to go to jail to not violate.

What core beliefs are you willing to give up to be a good neighbor? Any? Then cut the small number of Amish out after dark a little slack and slow down and watch for them in the small area they travel.

It's not a big enough deal for me to ask someone to violate a core belief. Maybe if they were everywhere on every road. But they're not.

Personally I've got a lot of respect for people who have beliefs they're willing to go to jail to defend even if I don't agree with them.


I clearly disagree with you.

I don't care about their core beliefs in this case. I don't even feel that they're applicable. They're already making use of modern conveniences for their own benefit. They certainly aren't subsidizing said conveniences with hay tax, either. If they're going to enjoy the benefit of said conveniences for free, they can suck it up just a little bit more and make themselves visible.

You keep making the implication that someone wanting a buggy to be more visible automatically implies some sort of flaw on the person asking. That they're obviously driving recklessly and being a "bad neighbor" and should really just be paying attention instead of texting, checking facebook, car-dancing and making frappucinos in their dash-mounted espresso machine.

Bullshit.

The "small area they travel" includes hundreds of miles of roads out in the western portion of this state. Hell, I've parked next to buggies at the Walgreens in Viroqua. The speed limits throughout that area are 45-55mph outside of the town.

And you know what? It's generally not too big of a deal because your headlights will light up that orange SMV triangle from pretty far away - this gives you ample opportunity to slow down, give them wide berth and wave as you pass. (They'll always wave back. They're friendly people.)

I've encountered plenty of slow-moving farm equipment, loose livestock, Amish children in dark clothing walking on roads after dusk, moron cyclists that are too good for lights and more deer than I could ever count. I've never hit them because I've been paying attention. I still don't need the sudden adrenaline rush that coming upon any of those things by surprise entails.

I don't take issue with the Amish in general. I take issue with this group that refuses to take simple steps to improve the safety of themselves and people whose roads they're using, and I take issue with you repeatedly implying that this implies a flaw on my part.
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby dave esmond » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:04 pm

Petro wrote:I take issue with you repeatedly implying that this implies a flaw on my part.


I'm sorry you read it that way. I meant no such thing.

You clearly give more of a shit about this then I do.



But yeah...I disagree with you. That's all. I don't think you're flawed.
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby barney » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:20 pm

Oh the Amish. Yes, we shun modern conveniences, so we don't need to pay taxes. Except when we need something, then we'll use the phone to call someone to get a car ride to Wal-Mart. Or use power tools when constructing a barn, but again, no taxes on the income or our properties because God says taxes are bad or something.

And don't forget about the puppy mills.

And their treatment of women.

And (if you've ever used those miles of roads) the not cleaning up after their said horses. Not fun on a bike (motor or ped driven).

(I know, I know, I'm painting with a pretty wide brush, but come on....)
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby ilikebeans » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:24 pm

a) Pretty sure it's not legal for the buggies (or any vehicles, really) to be on the roads after dark without lights, orange triangle or not.

b) The Amish do pay taxes... just not those used for construction and maintenance of roads.
Like other citizens, Amish pay sales and property taxes. However, Amish buggies, bicyclists, and pedestrians use public highways, but need not pay either motor vehicle registration fees or motor fuel taxes (taxes which are typically used to finance public roads).
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby john_titor » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:01 pm

ilikebeans wrote:
Amish buggies, bicyclists, and pedestrians use public highways, but need not pay either motor vehicle registration fees or motor fuel taxes (taxes which are typically used to finance public roads).


If you don't own a car, you wont have to pay a vehicle registration nor fuel tax either.

When this article came out the other day, it reminded me of a time after a trip to Viroqua that sparked me to research a bit on the Amish.

From what I read, most of their actions are based on verses of the Bible. Beards are in but mustaches out, due to them being worn by military oppressors back in the old country. Same thing for buttons.

As mentioned in the article the triangles are, oddly enough, viewed as a garish means to attract attention. A study stated the grey tape as effective as the triangle, in terms of visibility. The Amish were down with the grey tape, and all was well, but then the interpretation changed back to the triangle.

A lot of the stuff I found made sense, in terms of the desire to enforce strong clan bonds and sustain the small community. I did not understand how they can condone gas generators when electricity from the wire is discouraged. Maybe the view it like a windmill. I have more reading to do.
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby fennel » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:11 pm

I have a friend who traded quite a bit with the Amish in northern Indiana. He enoyed working with them but found it bizarre that they would put a gasoline-powered pesticide sprayer on a wagon drawn by a team of horses. Plain?
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby narcoleptish » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:36 pm

dave esmond wrote:
For me to be a good neighbor I need to pay more attention in areas where the Amish might be so I don't run into a large horse drawn vehicle that is difficult but not impossible to see after dark.


What about people who have no idea they're driving through amish country? As Barney said, plenty of amish overlook their core values to enjoy the modern convenience of someone elses phone, car, power tools, etc. Why should an innocent person have to live with the guilt of running down an amish family for lack of a simple reflector?

I betcha the horses are pro-triangle.
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby Igor » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:11 pm

When I lived up north I drove through a number of areas with Amish folks. Yes, the triangles do help. Not sure about the grey tape - I had not seen that.

But more lives would be saved if we put the triangles on the stupid kids that that run across the road, at night, with dark colored clothing, in the area of Raymond and Whitney. I hope there is never a tragedy there, but the number of stupid pedestrians and the level of their stupidity seem to both be very high. For Pete's sake, you aren't trying to get to an amusement park - it is a library, hardware store, or Wallgreens. What is the rush?
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby Remember_Me » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:05 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
In the first place, driving a car on a public roadway is not a right, it's a privilege granted by the State.


It's not a privilege to use a roadway. To have a driver's license, sure. Should religious "freedoms" apply to government roads? Or should they be separate? It's my right to try and travel as safely as I can and to expect that the keepers of the roadways help to ensure that and not let zany religious dogma trump my safety.

In addition to the various other taxes I pay, I wrote four separate checks over the past year for $75 each to the "Registration Fee Trust" for ugly yellow stickers with 12s on them. Two of those stickers went on two vehicles that saw less than 1,000 miles each. But I, of course, was happy to pay and am quite grateful for the transportation arteries available to me.

I'm not sure what the Amish pay.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
In the second place, their religious freedom apparently hasn't trumped jackshit if they're being fined and sent to jail.


In Kentucky, yes.

But if you scroll back up to the excerpt I quoted in my post and read the last paragraph you'll note that "courts in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan have sided with the religious freedom argument."

Meaning, their religious freedom has apparently trumped "jackshit" here. I don't really care about Kentucky.

Or their chicken.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Not really sure what your stand is here?


Hopefully I've made it clear by now.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Should we forcibly attach triangles to their buggies?


No more than we should forcibly install missing headlights or taillights on autos. I'd say fine them and then impound the buggies and horses if they continue or don't pay. Sell both at auction if need be.

I'm sure the horses would be grateful for new owners that didn't make them roadkill hazards.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Run'em out of town? What?


They've sort of already run themselves out of town... so no. I think my solutions are just fine and they should continue to keep to themselves as much as possible and leave us English to our sinful ways.
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby Remember_Me » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:43 pm

Of course the SUV driver was also drunk.

A buggy carrying five Amish children was hit by a sport utility vehicle in western Kentucky and the buggy driver was cited for not displaying a safety triangle.

Saturday's crash comes after nine Graves County, Ky., Amish men have been jailed for refusing to pay fines over the safety symbol, which they object to on religious grounds.

There were no injuries reported but The Paducah Sun reports the crash dragged the horse-drawn buggy several feet and knocked it into a ditch. Five children between ages 7 and 15 were in the buggy.

Graves County Sheriff's Deputy Steve Halsell cited a teenage boy who was driving because the buggy didn't have the required slow-moving vehicle symbol.


Link
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Re: Amish Buggies & Orange Triangles

Postby Remember_Me » Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:38 pm

It's one thing if grown men want to risk their own safety, but for fuck sake, leave your kids out of it!

Man.. religion irks me somethin' fierce.
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