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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:38 pm

As long as everybody's explaining exactly what happened that night I might as well share my personal theory.

I think Zimmerman's wounds were self-inflicted, which is not at all uncommon in cases of unjustified deadly force, and the photos released this week just reinforce my suspicion.

If you look closely you can see parallel lines of impact brusing on his face, two of which are very prominent. The lower of the two starts near his left nostril and extends diagonally towards his left ear, and the higher starts about an inch above his right eyebrow and follows the same trajectory across his forehead as the one below. I think those bruises were caused by the slide and the butt of his pistol as he smashed himself in the nose with it.

The wounds on the back of his head are consistent with the same scenario. Two clean lacerations with no accompanying cuts or scrapes. Makes more sense to me that a couple of (self-administered) thumps to the back of the head with a heavy 9 millimeter would cause that kind of injury rather than it being caused by having one's skull repeatedly smashed into concrete. The lack of other wounds to his face, neck and ears makes me even more suspicious of his story.

There are also witness reports in the discovery packet that describe Zimmerman walking 10-20 feet away from Martin's body after the shooting to a darkened area for a moment, where he "put his hand to his head" and cried out. I would venture that he did his self-injury at that time.

That would also explain why there was visible DNA on the grip and slide of Zimmerman's pistol that testing back in September revealed to not belong to Martin. The media treated that like it was evidence that Martin didn't reach for the pistol but that can't be what it was about. Instead I think the authorities wanted to know whose blood it was on the grip and slide, and given that it didn't belong to the shooting victim, how it ended up there.

So I'm saying Zimmerman shot Martin, immediately realized his mistake and essentially pistol whipped himself three times to create evidence of an attack that would justify deadly force. As I mentioned above, it certainly wouldn't be the first time such a thing occurred. I don't think I've ever heard someone else spit the same theory about this case but I wouldn't be suprised if it becomes the main issue at trial.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:46 pm

pjbogart wrote:Moral of the story: if you're not a cop and don't have a uniform, don't expect that random people will react kindly to you chasing them. The person who was "standing his ground" was Trayvon Martin.


I agree. Florida's law permits the unconditional use of deadly force whenever an individual has a reasonable apprehension that a forceable felony is about to occur. Here we've got an adult male following a juvenile at night in what turned out to be an unfamiliar neighborhood. And oh yeah, it was reasonable to suspect that the adult was armed with a firearm because it turned out he was.

I think it would have been entirely reasonable for Martin to conclude that he was about to be the victim of a violent felony, whether or not that was actually Zimmerman's intent, and to react with deadly force. That's bad news for Zimmerman because an aggressor can't claim self-defense without a clear and unequivocal retreat, even in Florida, and there just wasn't enough time for that judging by the 911 calls.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby blunt » Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:10 pm

"The New George Zimmerman Defense Fund, at George's request, will begin sending Thank You Cards to people who have contributed to the Defense Fund. Each card will be personaly signed by George. The identity of all donors will continue to be kept strictly confidential, and the envelope of the Thank You Cards will not have any reference to Mr. Zimmerman or the O'Mara Law Group."

(They spelled "personally" wrong.)

Image
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Fri May 24, 2013 11:47 am

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Fri May 24, 2013 1:15 pm

Remember_Me wrote:So here's the latest.


Is any of that admissible? I don't know, the court will decide. I will venture a guess that it is not, because it's pretty much irrelevant. What they uncover about Trayvon after the fact is not important as I see it. He could be a 100% pure All-American Boy Scout/ Altar Boy / good and decent person OR he could be a low-life, trouble-making, vile and despicable person. In a self-defense plea you look at what are the known facts and circumstances at the time. Were your actions based on a reasonable belief that there was a threat? Was the degree of force used reasonable under the circumstances? George Zimmerman wouldn't have had any knowledge of Trayvon's school troubles, drug use, interest in obtaining a gun or whether he believed he was "gangsta" so he couldn't base his actions on those things. What is uncovered later may explain some things, but I don't see how it would be able to be used to justify Zimmerman's actions. At best it might be used to suggest that Martin's alleged behavior that night is consistent with the kind of kid he was.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Fri May 24, 2013 1:39 pm

It might be a way to generate more donations from the "shoot him, he doesn't look like us" demographic. The coffers are probably getting low by now. Any press is good press if you're looking for money.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri May 24, 2013 1:49 pm

I would not be shocked if it was inadmissible. As you point out DM, it can't speak to Zimmerman's state of mind, as he wouldn't know any of that information. I assume the defense wants to present it as evidence of Martin's state of mind/past behavior since Zimmerman's story is that Martin attacked him, but I'd be shocked if the Judge allowed those items as evidence. None of them show anything close to proof that he would attack a random person.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby pjbogart » Fri May 24, 2013 9:08 pm

Prejudicial. Even if it had some evidentiary value, it's mostly just distraction, and prejudicial distraction at that.

RULE 403. EXCLUDING RELEVANT EVIDENCE FOR PREJUDICE, CONFUSION, WASTE OF TIME, OR OTHER REASONS

The court may exclude relevant evidence if its probative value is substantially outweighed by a danger of one or more of the following: unfair prejudice, confusing the issues, misleading the jury, undue delay, wasting time, or needlessly presenting cumulative evidence.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sat May 25, 2013 12:34 am

But in all fairness, there has been plenty of prejudicial efforts against Zimmerman.

The prosecution has had no qualms about digging far into Zimmerman's past and releasing information that has questionable relevance to the case. NBC improperly edited the call that Zimmerman had made to the police making it appear that Zimmerman had volunteered Martin's race without being asked. Pictures of Trayvon that were released were old, giving the impression that Zimmerman shot a much smaller and younger child rather than the 6-foot plus present-time Trayvon. Photos and video were released that made it appear that Zimmerman had suffered little injury, and only later did other photos and video surface showing more significant injuries. Not only were these things prejudicial, in many cases they were contradicted by subsequent or more complete evidence. You think there's a chance that the material released by the defense will be similarly impeached?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sat May 25, 2013 8:43 am

The only effort that really is comparable is the prosecution digging into Zimmerman's past. Nothing the media has released is part of the legal case.

Looking into a defendant's history is pretty standard. There is a big difference between gathering police and court records, and pulling some pictures and texts off of a phone.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby david cohen » Sat May 25, 2013 10:04 am

It's been a while since I read about this case, but I seem to recall that in the past few months, Zimmerman's attorneys basically dropped their "stand your ground" defense.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Meade » Sat May 25, 2013 10:12 am

Ninja wrote:
pjbogart wrote:Moral of the story: if you're not a cop and don't have a uniform, don't expect that random people will react kindly to you chasing them. The person who was "standing his ground" was Trayvon Martin.


I agree.

The Tampa Bay Times found 130 cases in Florida in which Stand Your Ground was invoked. In more than 70 percent of the cases, someone was killed. But only 28 of the cases went to trial, and only 19 resulted in a guilty verdict....

Stand Your Ground "really ties law enforcement's hands," says Florida law professor Elizabeth Megale, "because immunity is defined so broadly." Immunity, she says, does not just mean you can't be prosecuted. It means you can't be detained.

"We have solved a problem with the Stand Your Ground Law that didn't exist," says [Florida State Attorney William] Meggs. "The people who are using this law are not law abiding citizens. The people who are using this law are thugs and gangs and drug dealers." viewtopic.php?f=35&t=53046&start=555#p681968

ADDED: http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/5/23 ... der-Sought
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun May 26, 2013 5:01 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Nothing the media has released is part of the legal case.


You don't think it is relevant and part of the legal case when it comes to getting an impartial jury?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun May 26, 2013 5:26 pm

david cohen wrote:It's been a while since I read about this case, but I seem to recall that in the past few months, Zimmerman's attorneys basically dropped their "stand your ground" defense.


Well yes, because "stand your ground" is only legally applicable when a person has a reasonable means of escape from an attack. Stand your ground laws simply state that failure to use an available means of escape can't be used against you. If there is not a reasonable means of escape available, stand your ground doesn't have applicability. Presumably Zimmerman's lawyer believes that Trayvon Martin jumped Zimmerman and put him on the ground, leaving Zimmerman with no reasonable means of escape short of violently defending himself.

Even in the few states that are not "stand your ground" failure to try to escape can't be used against a person who has no reasonable means of fleeing. And not too surprisingly, people who are criminally assaulting another person tend to NOT do it in a manner or place that maximizes their victim's ability to flee or escape.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Meade » Sun May 26, 2013 5:40 pm

Here is another good opportunity for david cohen to inform himself about this case:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2013/3/6/ ... ng-Details
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