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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:50 am

Huckleby wrote:Overall, I think Zimmerman is guilty as sin - his thuggish behavior led to the death of Martin - but the problem is I don't know what he is guilty of.


He's guilty of murder. He instigated a confrontation that led to a death by his hands and there wasn't adequate time between the end of his 911 call (correction: I meant the end of the call with Ms. Jeantel, which was presumably the begining of the physical confrontation - 55 seconds) and the report of shots fired for him to legally retreat.

A person can't be the aggressor and also claim self-defense unless there's conduct clearly illustrating a desire to retreat and adequate time for the original victim to process that retreat is taking place. Judging purely from the times on the pre- and post-shooting 911 calls there just isn't enough time for retreat.

Being the aggressor also forfeits any possible application of Florida's "stand your ground" law, so that was never really at issue and it has no impact on the retreat requirement. I would argue that Mr. Martin had a reasonable belief that he was about to be subject to a forcible felony given that he was being followed by an adult at night, so he's the one who would have a "stand your ground" defense, giving him the right to use deadly force on Mr. Zimmerman, if things had ended differently.
Last edited by Ninja on Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:52 am

Ned Flanders wrote:Man, this girl is a moron.

The killing was a rare occurrence: thug wanna be crossed paths with Barney Fife. They threw down, and, on this night, thug wanna be lost.


What a disgusting person you must be.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ned Flanders » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:20 pm

Ninja wrote:
Ned Flanders wrote:Man, this girl is a moron.

The killing was a rare occurrence: thug wanna be crossed paths with Barney Fife. They threw down, and, on this night, thug wanna be lost.


What a disgusting person you must be.

You don't know the half of it.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:35 pm

Huckleby wrote:You're right about her Miami birth, she was born to Haitian immigrants. English was not her first language growing up, Spanish and Creole were spoken in her home.


No, she was not born to Haitian immigrants. She was born to a Haitian immigrant mother and a Dominican (Dominican Republic) immigrant father.

The father would have spoken Dominican Spanish and I don't know where he would have learned Creole. The mother would have spoken Haitian creole and I don't know where she would have learned Spanish. It might be interesting to know what language the mother and father used with each other in the home.

Haiti and the DR share the same island but virtually nothing else. No common language, heritage, colonial background. Little commerce or human movement between the countries. DR is several times wealthier than Haiti and so on. The two countries have gone to war with each other several times in the past couple hundred years. Most recently in 1937.

As for "first language" perhaps we have a problem of definition. The fact is that she has been in English speaking schools since kindergarten (according to her testimony yesterday) and seems to hang out mainly in the African-American (English Speaking) culture.

So if English is not her "first" language, it does seem to be her principal language since kindergarten at least.

I did not detect any Creole or Spanish accent.

Did you?

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:16 pm

oh for Pete's sake. Yes, I knew that her dad spoke Spanish, and therefore must have been from other side of Island.

You are picking a fight over silly details, we are not Jeantel biographers. The girl grew up learning 3 languages, and probably none of them very well. I heard on CNN that English was not much spoken in the house when she was growing up. The exact truth could be this or that or the other thing, but my point was essentially correct.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:38 pm

Huckleby wrote:oh for Pete's sake. Yes, I knew that her dad spoke Spanish, and therefore must have been from other side of Island.

You are picking a fight over silly details, we are not Jeantel biographers. The girl grew up learning 3 languages, and probably none of them very well. I heard on CNN that English was not much spoken in the house when she was growing up. The exact truth could be this or that or the other thing, but my point was essentially correct.


Other question, does anybody know if its confirmed that she speaks Spanish presently?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:10 pm

Ninja wrote:A person can't be the aggressor and also claim self-defense unless there's conduct clearly illustrating a desire to retreat and adequate time for the original victim to process that retreat is taking place. Judging purely from the times on the pre- and post-shooting 911 calls there just isn't enough time for retreat.


You're incorrect because you're overlooking and omitting other provisions of the Florida self-defense statute. (Which, incidentally is very similar to Wisconsin's.)

Here is the text of the portion of the Florida statute which covers "use of force by aggressor" which in Wisconsin statutes is referred to as "provocation."

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.


This shows that under Florida law there are two ways by which the "aggressor" can regain a claim of self-defense. You only described (b) while omitting (a).
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:25 pm

Dangerousman wrote:This shows that under Florida law there are two ways by which the "aggressor" can regain a claim of self-defense. You only described (b) while omitting (a).


Valid point. I have a hard time keeping up with how our cowardly, gun-obsessed society is abandoning 600 years of self-defense law. It seems like the NRA comes up with a new idea every year.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:31 am

Dangerousman wrote: This shows that under Florida law there are two ways by which the "aggressor" can regain a claim of self-defense. You only described (b) while omitting (a).


It's confusing because the legal experts on TV send mixed messages. Some say that Zimmerman's aggressive behavior, relentlessly tracking the kid with a weapon despite being told to back-off, negates a self-defense claim. This makes common sense, but is perhaps wrong legally. Others say that all that matters is that Zimmerman's life was at stake once the fight broke out.

I've gone back and forth on this as I learn more, but have settled on the likelihood that Zimmerman gets off.

What bothers me is that some people seem to excuse Zimmerman, they demonize the black teens, and applaud the fact that Zimmerman used his gun to kill one of them. The law doesn't always tell us right and wrong, and Zimmerman was clearly wrong. He is no more innocent than OJ, who also was found not-guilty.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby david cohen » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:42 am

So what we have here is a case where GZ is basically a big pussy: He stalks TM, starts a fight with TM, is getting his ass kicked by TM, so he shoots TM. Good luck getting a jury to sort this mess out!
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:04 am

david cohen wrote:So what we have here is a case where GZ is basically a big pussy: He stalks TM, starts a fight with TM, is getting his ass kicked by TM, so he shoots TM. Good luck getting a jury to sort this mess out!

That is probably the best one short paragraph description that I have heard on this case.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:36 am

Huckleby wrote: He is no more innocent than OJ, who also was found not-guilty.

And consequently lost the wrongful death suit.

The difference was that OJ had a few sellable items so he could come up with a few grand. GZ probably won't do so well.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby david cohen » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:48 pm

I had the same thought as Rabble. GZ walks in a criminal case but TM's family will certainly get millions in a civil suit. Unfortunately for them, GZ has no assets left from defending himself in the criminal case, so collection efforts will be for naught. I do wonder, however, if GZ was acting as an agent of the homeowner's association as a neighborhood watch volunteer, perhaps the association's liability insurance will pay TM's family something.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:54 pm

david cohen wrote:I had the same thought as Rabble. GZ walks in a criminal case but TM's family will certainly get millions in a civil suit. Unfortunately for them, GZ has no assets left from defending himself in the criminal case, so collection efforts will be for naught. I do wonder, however, if GZ was acting as an agent of the homeowner's association as a neighborhood watch volunteer, perhaps the association's liability insurance will pay TM's family something.


That is not going to happen, David, because it already has happened. Back in April, Trayvon's family had an out of court settlement with the homeowners association who did one of those "we'll admit nothing but pay to make this go away" deals.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:03 pm

Ninja wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:This shows that under Florida law there are two ways by which the "aggressor" can regain a claim of self-defense. You only described (b) while omitting (a).


Valid point. I have a hard time keeping up with how our cowardly, gun-obsessed society is abandoning 600 years of self-defense law. It seems like the NRA comes up with a new idea every year.


Choose which state you believe has the least amount of NRA influence and let's take a look at their self-defense laws. I think you'll find a fair amount of consistency among all the states and consistency with those "600 years of self-defense law." A "Stand your ground" case before the US Supreme Court dates back to the 19th Century and "Castle Doctrine" was established in English law at least as far back as the 18th Century.
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