MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Monday, December 29, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 24.0° F  Overcast
Collapse Photo Bar

The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:04 pm

HawkHead wrote:...TM who first decided to run changes his mind and decides to kick the guy who is following him's ass.

Or to put it another way, TM decided to stand his ground.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 20286
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:19 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
HawkHead wrote:...TM who first decided to run changes his mind and decides to kick the guy who is following him's ass.

Or to put it another way, TM decided to stand his ground.


You mean, to put it another, and incorrect way, since you clearly don't understand the concept of "stand your ground," particularly as it is written in Florida law. You seem to think that "stand your ground" means you have a right to be there so you just get to dig your heels into the ground and remain there no matter what.

For Trayvon to have "stood his ground" he would have had to have had a reasonable belief that he had to use force in order to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. That's what Florida statutes require. And it is a HUGE stretch to try to argue that he could have reasonably believed any crime was imminent, let alone one involving a forcible felony. The word "imminent" means about to happen at the moment. His only reasonable belief would have been that he could have just continued home and been safe from any concerns he might have felt about that guy who was watching him or following him. Stand your ground does not mean you can launch a preemptive strike against someone you consider vaguely threatening.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:25 pm

A guy with a gun was chasing him. I would fear that, even though you might not.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 20286
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:29 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
HawkHead wrote:...TM who first decided to run changes his mind and decides to kick the guy who is following him's ass.

Or to put it another way, TM decided to stand his ground.


For Trayvon to have "stood his ground" he would have had to have had a reasonable belief that he had to use force in order to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. That's what Florida statutes require. And it is a HUGE stretch to try to argue that he could have reasonably believed any crime was imminent, let alone one involving a forcible felony.


Are you kidding me? We've got an adult in a car, at night, following a juvenile on foot who, as it turns out, was a visitor to the area and unfamiliar with his surroundings, but had every right to be there. The juvenile is aware that he's being followed, and then the adult gets out of the car and there's some kind of confrontation. That's a juvenile who has a reasonable fear that he's about to be subject to a forcible felony of some sort or another. Especially when we find out, in absolute fact, that the adult was carrying a gun, and the juvenile got murdered with that gun. C'mon son.

This is exactly the kind of scenario that this law was designed to address. The FL legislature wanted to deal with this type of situation with a presumption of innocence for the putative victim rather than requiring proof. But even under that approach they could have written it to require more than just a reasonable belief. And they could have written it to require a felony in progress rather than just imminence. And they could have put various conditions on exactly which forcible felonies would qualifiy.

They didn't. This law was written to require only an arguable hunch that some shit might be going down before you murder someone who might present some vague threat to you. And in this case the demographics didn't play out like the designers intended (I'm assuming, based on reaction), but it would have been applicable if things had turned out differently, and it is still relevant to the overall situation because both parties can't claim self defense.

Keep in mind that you're arguing essentially the same standard for a gentleman who did in fact employ deadly force during a confrontation that he himself instigated, and his reasonable belief was based on head wounds sustained that required no more than bandaids to patch up (and even that assumes that his account of the situation is completely accurate). If reasonableness and immenince would be at issue for Mr. Martin, then they're at issue for the defense too.

This is why the laws that you advocate for are stupid and cowardly.
Ninja
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1098
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:22 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:05 am

Top to bottom, that was beautiful, Ninja.

Suck it, Dman. You got schooled.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3192
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:25 am

Yep. Dman and Ninja. I think we have a match.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11856
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:59 pm

It comes out today that George Zimmerman trained in MMA (mixed-martial arts).

Zimmerman wanted to box, but the classes didn't fit his schedule, so Pollack had him start grappling. Zimmerman would have learned chocks, arm locks, leg locks -- "Basically make the person say, 'Uncle,'" said Pollack. Training sessions are normally two hours long and Zimmerman would have taken classes 2-3 times each week.

http://www.hlntv.com

He also stated that George was pretty unathletic and not very good at it.
HawkHead
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 914
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:29 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:42 pm

The Nation wrote:Because it’s clear that, whoever instigated the altercation, Zimmerman followed Trayvon that night. He was instructed not to, but he did anyway. That Zimmerman fumbled for an answer when the lead investigator asked whether he thought Trayvon was afraid of him is emblematic of the way society has trained us to think about black manhood. Of course he didn’t think Trayvon could be scared. Young black men never are. They are the danger. Which is also why, for some, Zimmerman’s story, even with the cartoonish language he ascribes to Trayvon, doesn’t sound far-fetched. A black man jumping from behind the bushes to sucker-punch someone they don’t know and attempt to kill them only a short distance from their home. It makes perfect sense if you believe that black men are preternaturally violent.

The jury will have to decide who they believe in this instance, Jeantel or Zimmerman, and it is this that has me concerned. Brittney Cooper, writing for Salon, captured it succinctly: “…black womanhood, black manhood and urban adolescence are always on trial in the American imaginary.”

Zimmerman’s innocence rests on the notion of Trayvon’s criminality. And in this country, it’s not that difficult to convince six people of the criminality of a 17-year-old black boy.

Progressives are insane about this case. "Is 'black manhood' on trial? WTF, the DEFENDANT is on trial, you delirious, fanatical, mob-crazed lunatics. Now today the lead investigator testifies that TM's father admitted when he heard the 911 call it was not TM's voice screaming.

We all knew this. His mom knows this. The prosecutors know this. Even the prosecution's case often reveal clear signs of TM as a hostile young man. "Creep ass cracker," is what you might call someone if your opinion and mindset is such that you're about to violently attack them. It certainly does not convey emotional neutrality.

The left with their insane media campaign painting TM as a 13 year old - making sure the first and only face liberals would associate with the attacker was that of a 13 year old boy - are just whipping up their rabid dogs. Why wait for Zimmerman to be declared innocent? Why not just get it over with and start looting and rioting now. There are plenty of "Creep Ass Crackers" to take it out on.

I mean what's the point of waiting for a sham case to inevitably fail, why not just skip the middle man and pretend "a murderer was set free" now, since you'll be pretending it then?

Image
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby peripat » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:05 pm

So what I get from your post is that you believe black people are incredibly violent and adults of other races should stalk black teenagers to assure they do not...what? stand their ground on the streets?
peripat
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1051
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:59 am

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:30 pm

So what I get from your post is that you believe black people are incredibly violent and adults of other races should stalk black teenagers to assure they do not...what? stand their ground on the streets?

Image

--Peripat
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby DCB » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:33 pm

Bludgeon wrote: "Creep ass cracker," is what you might call someone if your opinion and mindset is such that you're about to violently attack them.

Or, what you might call them if they are acting creepy and stalking you and you are terrified of them.

I think most people would be inclined to run away from people like that. But YMMV.
DCB
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2802
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:40 pm

DCB wrote:
Bludgeon wrote: "Creep ass cracker," is what you might call someone if your opinion and mindset is such that you're about to violently attack them.

Or, what you might call them if they are acting creepy and stalking you and you are terrified of them.

I think most people would be inclined to run away from people like that. But YMMV.


Yeah I'm always terrified of short polite people in nice neighborhoods who are twelve years my senior.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:51 pm

I'm not black, but I'd be afraid if some white guy (regardless of height) was following me around. Being followed around by a stranger is not neutral, it is threatening. In fact, it is probably just the kind of thing gun-carriers think they're protecting themselves against.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11856
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:55 pm

snoqueen wrote:I'm not black, but I'd be afraid if some white guy (regardless of height) was following me around. Being followed around by a stranger is not neutral behavior, it is threatening. In fact, it is probably just the kind of thing gun-carriers think they're protecting themselves against.


And Zimmerman is which person in this scenario? Another prime attribute of the TM case is its innate ability to showcase the Orwellian nature of the modern progressive psychology. Hello, double-think.

Image

It's undeniable for progs - you can look right at him, see with your eyes, "brown skin, brown eyes, black hair, mixed features,' and miraculously, simultaneously, instantly say to yourself, "White Guy."

I'm calling it - put a fork in it - progressivism just went loco.
Bludgeon
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1291
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:27 am

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:04 pm

And Zimmerman is which person in this scenario?


The follower. Did you think someone was following him? Have you been living in a cave?

I feel like I'm trying to explain planetary warming to Sandi.
Last edited by snoqueen on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11856
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar