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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:05 pm

snoqueen wrote:
And Zimmerman is which person in this scenario?


The follower. Did you think someone was following him? Have you been living in a cave?

I feel like I'm trying to explain planetary warming to Sandi.


Ahem:
snowqueen wrote:I'm not black, but I'd be afraid if some white guy (regardless of height) was following me around.


Again, Zimmerman was which guy in this scenario?

Image
Again:

It's undeniable for progs - you can look right at him, see with your eyes, "brown skin, brown eyes, black hair, mixed features,' and miraculously, simultaneously, instantly say to yourself, "White Guy."

I'm calling it - put a fork in it - progressivism just went loco.
Last edited by Bludgeon on Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby DCB » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:08 pm

George is such a polite man:
Fucking punks. Those assholes, they always get away.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:09 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
snoqueen wrote:
And Zimmerman is which person in this scenario?


The follower. Did you think someone was following him? Have you been living in a cave?

I feel like I'm trying to explain planetary warming to Sandi.


Ahem:

I'm not black, but I'd be afraid if some white guy (regardless of height) was following me around.


White guy, tan guy, dark brown guy, black guy. Same same. I do not like being followed around. Do you?

Now stop pretending you don't get the point, because everyone can see you do and you're trying to create a distraction.

DCB is right. We need to put this in terms of manners. Do polite people follow strangers around?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:09 pm

DCB wrote:George is an innocent man.


Fixt.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:30 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
DCB wrote:George is an innocent man.


Fixt.

I thought that was banable?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:33 pm

Bludgeon, what is your obsession with black people?

To me this is simple, can your child walk done the street without being followed and shot. I don't care what color anyone is in this scenario.

A teenager going to the store to buy soda shouldn't have to worry about getting killed, especially by the neighborhood watch.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:40 pm

HawkHead wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:
DCB wrote:George is an innocent man.

Fixt.

I thought that was banable?

That was the rule under the old regime. We are now in a interegnum period. Who knows what the future might hold with a new administrator.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:46 pm

Here is another thought I am having on this subject.

What is the purpose of a neighborhood watch? To deter criminal activity.

So GZ is following the subject and calls the police. I'm ok up to this point. No serious criminal is going to commit a crime knowing they are being followed and watched. In fact, they would leave the area and go somewhere else or wait until later when the watchperson is gone.

A kid who is scared shitless would run and hide and try to get away from the person following him. The criminal would know he has been seen and would quickly leave the area.

GZ greatly oversteps has duty of neighborhood watch by getting out of the vehicle and carrying a loaded handgun with a bulletin in the chamber. Those things don't deter crime they escalate a situation and can turn things deadly if things get out of hand.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:53 pm

HawkHead wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:
DCB wrote:George is an innocent man.


Fixt.

I thought that was banable?


First I've heard of it.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Ninja » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:36 pm

HawkHead wrote:It comes out today that George Zimmerman trained in MMA (mixed-martial arts)...
He also stated that George was pretty unathletic and not very good at it.


That kind of goes without saying given that he felt the need to carry a concealed firearm in a gated community.

I'm curious to hear what the Zimmerman defenders make of the fact that there was zero Zimmerman DNA under Martin's fingernails. Martin was allegedly bashing Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. Zimmerman had no hair to grab and it was evidently damp/rainy enough for the defense to argue that other DNA evidence could been contaminated or washed away.

How do you grab a bald dude by his slippery ass head in a life or death struggle, bash it into the sidewalk, and not end up with any trace of his skin or hair or anything under your nails?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:40 am

Ninja wrote:Are you kidding me? We've got an adult in a car, at night, following a juvenile on foot who, as it turns out, was a visitor to the area and unfamiliar with his surroundings, but had every right to be there. The juvenile is aware that he's being followed, and then the adult gets out of the car and there's some kind of confrontation. That's a juvenile who has a reasonable fear that he's about to be subject to a forcible felony of some sort or another. Especially when we find out, in absolute fact, that the adult was carrying a gun, and the juvenile got murdered with that gun. C'mon son.

This is exactly the kind of scenario that this law was designed to address. The FL legislature wanted to deal with this type of situation with a presumption of innocence for the putative victim rather than requiring proof. But even under that approach they could have written it to require more than just a reasonable belief. And they could have written it to require a felony in progress rather than just imminence. And they could have put various conditions on exactly which forcible felonies would qualifiy.

They didn't. This law was written to require only an arguable hunch that some shit might be going down before you murder someone who might present some vague threat to you. And in this case the demographics didn't play out like the designers intended (I'm assuming, based on reaction), but it would have been applicable if things had turned out differently, and it is still relevant to the overall situation because both parties can't claim self defense.

Keep in mind that you're arguing essentially the same standard for a gentleman who did in fact employ deadly force during a confrontation that he himself instigated, and his reasonable belief was based on head wounds sustained that required no more than bandaids to patch up (and even that assumes that his account of the situation is completely accurate). If reasonableness and immenince would be at issue for Mr. Martin, then they're at issue for the defense too.

This is why the laws that you advocate for are stupid and cowardly.


What makes you say Trayvon was "unfamiliar with his surroundings?" Wiki article states, "Martin had visited his father's fiancée at Twin Lakes several times."

So, okay, you don't like the concept of "presumed innocence" even though it dates back to Roman Law, is contained in among other things English Common Law and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and is a cornerstone of the American justice system.

Sorry, but you can't use the fact that Zimmerman had a gun as part of your theory that Martin had a reasonable fear unless you can show that Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun. There's been absolutely no evidence that he knew about the gun until either the moment he got shot, or immediately beforehand at the soonest.

Absolutely false that the Florida law only requires an "arguable hunch that something was going down" in order to shoot someone. You can't defend that statement in the slightest because it's simply not contained in the law. You might want to check how the term "reasonable belief" is defined in self-defense laws. I suggest before you argue how bad you think a law is that you familiarize yourself with it.

I see you have chosen to subscribe to the prosecution's absurd insinuation that a person is not justified in using deadly force unless they have already suffered life-threatening injuries. Well, there would be a self-defense law that absolutely no one would follow!

Yes, reasonableness and imminence ARE an issue for Zimmerman. I think if your head is in the process of being slammed into concrete, that's "imminent" enough to satisfy any reasonable person. Imminent means "about to happen" but if you want to re-define the word to mean "in progress?" Okay, in this case it WAS in progress.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:12 am

Ninja wrote:
HawkHead wrote:It comes out today that George Zimmerman trained in MMA (mixed-martial arts)...
He also stated that George was pretty unathletic and not very good at it.


That kind of goes without saying given that he felt the need to carry a concealed firearm in a gated community.

I'm curious to hear what the Zimmerman defenders make of the fact that there was zero Zimmerman DNA under Martin's fingernails. Martin was allegedly bashing Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. Zimmerman had no hair to grab and it was evidently damp/rainy enough for the defense to argue that other DNA evidence could been contaminated or washed away.

How do you grab a bald dude by his slippery ass head in a life or death struggle, bash it into the sidewalk, and not end up with any trace of his skin or hair or anything under your nails?


Hey, have you ever noticed that in a lot of street fights a guy will remove his shirt before getting into a fight? There's a good reason for that: clothes are easier to grasp. So maybe you slam a slippery head by grabbing the lapels or other part of the person's clothing.

By the way, while you're pondering the mysteries of how you slam someone without getting DNA under your nails, why don't you ponder the mystery of why Trayvon, a healthy 17 year-old male, didn't manage to go a 100-150 yards in about a 5-minute period-- based on analysis of phone records-- that occurred after "he ran." It doesn't seem particularly plausible that it was his intention, does it?

So what that Zimmerman felt a need to carry a gun in a gated community? Apparently it was an open gate. How many burglaries have you had within a couple blocks of your house in the past year? According to this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.


US Dept. of Justice Bureau of Justice Statistics indicate that when someone is home during a burglary a certain percentage of them are assaulted, robbed or raped and about 40% of those times it is by someone who is armed.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:17 am

Dangerousman wrote:Yes, reasonableness and imminence ARE an issue for Zimmerman. I think if your head is in the process of being slammed into concrete, that's "imminent" enough to satisfy any reasonable person.


Except Zimmerman's head was not being slammed into the concrete.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:36 am

Dangerousman wrote:
Ninja wrote:Are you kidding me? We've got an adult in a car, at night, following a juvenile on foot who, as it turns out, was a visitor to the area and unfamiliar with his surroundings, but had every right to be there. The juvenile is aware that he's being followed, and then the adult gets out of the car and there's some kind of confrontation. That's a juvenile who has a reasonable fear that he's about to be subject to a forcible felony of some sort or another.

Especially when we find out, in absolute fact, that the adult was carrying a gun, and the juvenile got murdered with that gun. C'mon son.


Sorry, but you can't use the fact that Zimmerman had a gun as part of your theory that Martin had a reasonable fear unless you can show that Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun. There's been absolutely no evidence that he knew about the gun until either the moment he got shot, or immediately beforehand at the soonest.



Dman, apparently you need to increase your reading comprehension. Ninja doesn't say that the gun makes TM have reasonable fear, he says being followed, and confronted by an adult inside a gated community does.

Ninja goes on to state that the presence of the gun and death of TM is a good indication that TM had a reason to fear for his life when GZ confronted him.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby HawkHead » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:41 am

Dangerousman wrote:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.



So now are you arguing, in high crime zones, that residents can carry guns and shoot anyone they want because there is reason to be afraid?

I am not sure how breaking-in and vandalism raises the bar to be able to shoot someone but having a stranger follow you in a car in the same neighborhood doesn't.
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