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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:21 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Because it means they were not thinking he acted in self defense, but didn't find enough evidence to prove guilt on either charge. There's no logical reason to consider manslaughter if you think the defendant was trying to protect him own life. Since they asked questions about manslaughter, one would have to assume they were considering it. As you stated, we won't really know unless one of the jurists speaks.


But self-defense was a legal defense on every charge against Zimmerman, so the jury certainly could have acquitted him on manslaughter charges based on self-defense also.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:23 am

Dangerousman wrote:But self-defense was a legal defense on every charge against Zimmerman, so the jury certainly could have acquitted him on manslaughter charges based on self-defense also.


Maybe you are right, but I heard otherwise from a TV expert.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:30 am

It occurs to me that all this legal talk is just cover for the emotions inside.

I am deeply revolted by George Zimmerman's behavior. The undeniable facts are there. Others obviously feel differently.

I find little to blame MArtin for; if some creepy-ass cracker was stalking me, I might get into a fight too. Perhaps Martin acted badly, but that is unknowable.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:41 am

Huckleby wrote:
Dangerousman wrote: The basically said it was too bad his behavior that night resulted in his death, which was tragic.


They did not prove this and should not have stated it as fact.

The attorney's don't know what happened.

Like you, they make no acknowledgement of Zimmerman's awful choices and behavior.

Better to just take a humble position than to be casting blame.


Sorry, but if you claim you've shot someone in self-defense, you certainly are blaming the other person for behaving in a way that forced you to do it. The only alternative is to say that the person you shot did nothing wrong and not blameworthy, but the shooter made a mistake based on a reasonable belief. That's because self-defense laws do take into account reasonable beliefs that are mistaken. (e.g. in the dark it appeared that he was reaching for a gun, but it turned out to be something harmless.)

As far as what the defense "proved" we'll have to wait to see if a juror comes forward and explains what they considered to have been proven to them after seeing all of the evidence.

It's not the defense attorney's job to acknowledge any bad choices or behavior they might regard Zimmerman having made. But whatever those may have been in your opinion, clearly they weren't as bad of choices as Martin's decision to not go home as he clearly had the time and means to do. Since he didn't, it doesn't appear that he was experiencing a reasonable fear of Zimmerman.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:53 am

Huckleby wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:But self-defense was a legal defense on every charge against Zimmerman, so the jury certainly could have acquitted him on manslaughter charges based on self-defense also.


Maybe you are right, but I heard otherwise from a TV expert.


I believe the jury instructions for the manslaughter charge indicated that acting in self-defense qualified as "justifiable homicide."

I know one of the defense attorneys, O'Mara, I believe, speculated that the jury's question about manslaughter may have regarded mention of the other legal defenses to the charge included in the jury instructions: i.e., "excusable homicide." Those defenses which include things like "accidental" killing didn't apply to the facts of the case, but are a part of the standard jury instructions for manslaughter cases.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:54 am

Dangerousman wrote: Sorry, but if you claim you've shot someone in self-defense, you certainly are blaming the other person for behaving in a way that forced you to do it.

Sure, that's appropriate for the court room.
It's not appropriate after the verdict to be triumphantly disparaging a dead teen, whose death was certainly caused in part by your client's bad choices, and whose own culpability is unknown.

Dangerousman wrote: As far as what the defense "proved" we'll have to wait to see if a juror comes forward and explains what they considered to have been proven to them after seeing all of the evidence.

If a juror steps forward and says she is certain that Zimmerman acted in self-defense, then she is an idiot. I could care less about her opinion. There is no way to piece together what happened in that scene with any degree of certainly, which is precisely why Zimmerman got off.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:58 am

Dangerousman wrote: I believe the jury instructions for the manslaughter charge indicated that acting in self-defense qualified as "justifiable homicide."

I know one of the defense attorneys, O'Mara, I believe, speculated that the jury's question about manslaughter may have regarded mention of the other legal defenses to the charge included in the jury instructions: i.e., "excusable homicide." Those defenses which include things like "accidental" killing didn't apply to the facts of the case, but are a part of the standard jury instructions for manslaughter cases.


AFter thinking about it, I'm sure you're right about self-defense applying equally to all the charges. But some of the TV comments about justifiable homicide confused me, and I dare not think too much more about your legal explanation here.

This case is about emotions, not legalities. That's why we're up late posting. I am offended by the excusing of Zimmerman's behavior.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:59 am

Huckleby wrote:It occurs to me that all this legal talk is just cover for the emotions inside.

I am deeply revolted by George Zimmerman's behavior. The undeniable facts are there. Others obviously feel differently.

I find little to blame MArtin for; if some creepy-ass cracker was stalking me, I might get into a fight too. Perhaps Martin acted badly, but that is unknowable.


The only "stalking" was TM sneaking up on GZ. Look at the map of their paths. Suckerpunching the wrong guy can lead to tragic consequences, where did you grow up that you don't know that? You don't get a free punch to the nose because some random stranger looked at you. Now go wash your sheet and hood because your liberal Lynch Mob failed.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:06 am

Rich Schultz wrote: The only "stalking" was TM sneaking up on GZ.

Looking at the facts that are known with a high degree of certainty, it's hard to come to your conclusion. We know what GZ was up to from phone calls. TM's last moments where he allegedly sprung a trap are rather murky.

I wonder why you have come to such a hard conclusion over such fuzzy information. What inside you leads you to impart such an evil, or shall we say dark, nature to TM?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Rich Schultz » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:11 am

Huckleby wrote:
Rich Schultz wrote: The only "stalking" was TM sneaking up on GZ.

Looking at the facts that are known with a high degree of certainty, it's hard to come to your conclusion. We know what GZ was up to from phone calls. TM's last moments where he allegedly sprung a trap are rather murky.

I wonder why you have come to such a hard conclusion over such fuzzy information. What inside you leads you to impart such an evil, or shall we say dark, nature to TM?


The evidence, common sense and six jurors in Florida. What have you got?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:12 am

I think I will permanently retire from this thread.
It's about feelings, not logic, and I've had my catharsis.

I'm glad we didn't have the internet for the OJ case.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:13 am

Rich Schultz wrote: The evidence, common sense and six jurors in Florida. What have you got?
I've got a half a pot of coffee in my belly, and a sick feeling in my heart. I cite both as an excuse if I've been overly nasty to anybody, and as Chief Joseph said, "I will fight no more forever."
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby GordonFreeman » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

So let me see if I have this straight:

1. There are some assholes I don't like.
2. Lure them to Florida.
3. Stalk them and get them to fight me.
4. Pull out my CC weapon.
5. Shoot them. (beat myself in the face if need be)
6. Go home.

Did I miss something? Is it really that simple? All this time I thought it was harder to get away with.

Will be interesting to see how long Zimmerpussy lasts on the streets. I give him 2 weeks.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:31 am

Dangerousman wrote:But self-defense was a legal defense on every charge against Zimmerman, so the jury certainly could have acquitted him on manslaughter charges based on self-defense also.


But I believe self defense has the same standard for 2nd Degree homicide and Manslaughter. If they think it can't be 2nd degree homicide, due to Zimmerman acting in self defense, then they have no reason to consider manslaughter. It's possible they didn't consider self defense for the higher charge, and moved on to manslaughter for other reasons, then considered self defense, but given that self defense was the crux of the defense's argument, that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

My guess is it will come down to the lack of evidence proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

Zimmerman probably isn't out of the woods yet either. The fed's are still looking into a civil rights case, and I would be shocked if Martin's family didn't file for wrongful death.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Sandi » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:41 am

He was found not guilty on all charges.

A Florida jury acquitted George Zimmerman on Saturday night in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, which touched off an intense national debate about race, guns and self-defense.


NBC News

Right choice I think. The prosecutors who initially evaluated the evidence declined to prosecute him. Enter politics, and it was only after racists like Al Sharpton stirred the pot that he was charged.
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