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Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

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Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Bland » Sat May 05, 2012 1:20 pm

It seems that a lot of people are of the opinion that guns aren't really to be blamed for the deaths or injuries to innocent people. It might be interesting to keep tabs for a while on any cases that make the news.

Here's one to get us started:
CAMDEN, N.J. - April 27, 2012 (WPVI) -- Gunfire erupted after a fight inside a Camden restaurant, leaving one man dead and another injured.....
Police say it appears that a fight broke out between the shooter, his friend and a group of other men.....
"They were fighting and the next thing you know the gun had dropped, somebody else picked it up and they started shooting," said Dione Brown.....
A 36 year old Camden man had been sitting in a booth with a woman when the fight moved their way and the gun went off. A stray bullet hit and killed him.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?secti ... id=8639794
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Bland » Sat May 05, 2012 1:21 pm

Another:

A 20-year-old woman is in stable condition after being shot in her buttocks.....
police said she was likely an innocent bystander. Cops said the shooter was involved in an argument with someone else who lived on the block.....

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/dncr ... lized.html
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Bland » Sat May 05, 2012 1:22 pm

And another:

What started as a fight ended with gunfire and two 18 year olds were shot with one being an innocent bystander.

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/loc ... ry-mansion
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Bland » Sat May 05, 2012 1:24 pm

CLEARWATER — A bystander was recovering from his injuries Friday after he was shot during an early-morning brawl outside the 24 Carat Gentlemen's Club.....
At 3 a.m. deputies responded to a report of gunfire at the club at 16717 U.S. 19, north of East Bay Drive. [The innocent victim] was not involved in the fight, which began when the club was shutting down for the night, according to the Sheriff's Office.


http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafe ... ub/1226026
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Bland » Sat May 05, 2012 1:25 pm

Boston Police report a man walking down the street in Codman Square this afternoon was shot, apparently by one of four men engaged in an argument nearby.....
Police say witnesses saw four men arguing when "one of the male brandished then discharged a firearm." The four did not wait around for police.


http://www.universalhub.com/crime/20120 ... jured.html
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Bland » Sat May 05, 2012 1:27 pm

BELLE GLADE — A 39-year-old woman was shot in the back early this morning.....
The sheriff's office said that two men in the area were arguing when one of them fired the gun. The bullet missed its intended target, striking Williams instead.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/crime ... 98568.html
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Bland » Sat May 05, 2012 1:28 pm

Police have identified a man they say is responsible for Friday's shooting death of innocent bystander Clarice Douglas.

Douglas was shot in the head and back around 2:30 p.m. as she walked on the 1500 block of Corlies Street in Grays Ferry and inadvertently ended up in the middle of a gunfire exchange between two men.

http://www.metro.us/philadelphia/local/ ... ting-death
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Remember_Me » Sat May 05, 2012 4:27 pm

Are most of these shooters really citizens at this point?

Sound more like armed thugs.
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Sat May 05, 2012 4:33 pm

Hey that's great! You were able to figure out all on your own that criminals, especially gang members, use guns. I doubt that ever dawned on anyone else! Fine research there buddy. Oh yeah, and criminals are citizens too-- at least most them.

It's interesting that 5 out of the seven cases that you reported occurred in states that the Brady Campaign ranks as in the top 10 best "gun control" states. Your first case is out of New Jersey which is ranked #2 by the Brady Bunch. NJ Has a population approaching 9,000,000 people and but issued concealed carry permits to a grand total of ~1500, all of whom are undoubtedly either working in security or who are rich and well-connected. This leaves the rest of the law-abiding there unable to choose an effective means of defense when they leave their houses. Of course the criminals don't worry about such trifles, and they arm up whenever and wherever they choose.

And you have a case from Massachusetts, which is ranked #3 by the Brady ghouls and 3 cases out Pennsylvania-- which is ranked #10.

But you have no information here that tells us that any of the shooters involved were lawfully possessing their firearms, but plenty to suggest they were not.

Keep up the good work, thanks.
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Sat May 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Remember_Me wrote:Are most of these shooters really citizens at this point?

Sound more like armed thugs.


Well Bland and his ilk are incapable of seeing a distinction between good guys with guns and criminals. In fact, looking at comments frequently posted in his forum one gets the impression that the good guys are what they consider to be the primary threat. Common sense is turned upside in their paranoid world.
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Stebben84 » Sat May 05, 2012 7:16 pm

Dangerousman wrote: in their paranoid world.


says the guy who probably has his gun at his side while he types this.
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Remember_Me » Sat May 05, 2012 7:58 pm

Stebben84 wrote:says the guy who probably has his gun at his side while he types this.


Image
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby snoqueen » Sat May 05, 2012 9:00 pm

This good gun-guy/bad gun-guy thing is not a useful rule. How do we tell which gun guy is good or bad before they kill someone? Or can't we? We know it can't be clothing, race, accent, appearance, gender. Is it about who dies, then? Under what reasoning should we take an automatic leap of faith to "the dead person was always wrong and it is always right that he got killed"?

Do you kill someone for being a pickpocket? For stealing a handful of cash at a PDQ? For stealing money from a drug dealer? For trespassing? For denting your nice car? (My own grandfather was known for jumping out with a gun when someone hit his back bumper.) For insulting you? For insulting someone else? What if the shooter and the dead person spoke different languages and misunderstood one another? Does the shooter get a pass? Do you kill somebody for punching someone? How hard do they have to punch? Do you kill over pushing someone down on the pavement deliberately? What if they get up and go after the person who pushed them? Who should die then?

This is unclear as hell and full of gray areas, highly subjective, and the consequences are as big as it gets. There really ought to be an enforceable standard beyond "it wasn't against the law to kill him."

If we are to believe in a good gun-guy/bad gun-guy system we need a way to tell who is which before shooting happens. It can't just be a self-assigned category, because everyone will say they have good reasons for carrying their guns. (Conceivably there will be found a law that gives the guidelines, most likely one going back to when we lived in tribes and knew right away who was in our tribe and who wasn't.)

For now, it looks like we can't always tell good shooters from bad shooters even after someone is dead, given the diversity of beliefs regarding what's worth killing over and the complexity of real world situations. What sounds so simple is not at all -- it's arbitrary and subjective.


Where does it say any of those incidents Bland linked was gang-related? It sounds like people arguing, mostly, and all sorts of people argue. One was at a so-called "Gentleman's Club" but I hardly think that's proof of gang involvement. Sounds more like the usual causes: disputes over women and money.

Meantime, there's this, which is horrible by anyone's standards, clearly not about gangs, and no joking matter:

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpp/news/lo ... l-shooting

I found several others like it but one is enough.
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Dangerousman » Sun May 06, 2012 3:16 am

Snoqueen, are you honestly that confused or are you just trying to convince people that they ought to be confused? Have you bothered to read anything about self-defense laws, for example, the law itself?

Do you kill someone for being a pickpocket? No, and if you do you ought to go to prison.

For stealing a handful of cash at a PDQ? No, and if you do you ought to go to prison.

For stealing money from a drug dealer? No, and if you do you ought to go to prison.

For trespassing? No, and if you do you ought to go to prison.

For denting your nice car? No, and if you do you ought to go to prison. (Hey, you tell us if your grandfather was a good guy or a bad guy!)

For insulting you? For insulting someone else? No, and if you do you ought to go to prison.

What if the shooter and the dead person spoke different languages and misunderstood one another? Does the shooter get a pass? I guess that depends on what sort of misunderstanding occurred. If Mr. X speaks Esperanto and the sentence "I desperately need to use the bathroom" in Esperanto sounds similar to "I have a bomb strapped to my body and you're all about to die." to English-speaking ears, then, yeah, you might get a pass. Might... might not. But if your defense is "I didn't understand a damn word he said, so I shot him." Then you ought to go to prison.

Do you kill somebody for punching someone? How hard do they have to punch? Do you kill over pushing someone down on the pavement deliberately? What if they get up and go after the person who pushed them? That's a question that the prosecutor has to decide, if they think it's wrong, then the jury will decide. This is not something one can give an absolute yes or no to, because there are too many variables that have to be taken on a case-by-case basis. For example, who is punching and who is getting punched? Is Mike Tyson punching you? Or is it some pale scrawny wimp like Bland? Is it one person punching or multiple people? Those are the sort of things that will be weighed in determining whether a person had a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm and used a reasonable amount of force to prevent it.

How do you tell the good guys from the bad guys if they haven't done anything bad? Well, probably you don't tell one from the other. Just like you don't know if a cop you see on the street is honest or dishonest. You don't know if the pilot of the plane you're a passenger in is a good pilot or going to screw up that strong cross-wind landing. How do you know the building you're in was designed and built properly if it hasn't collapsed yet? You don't. You never get absolute certainty about most things in life, and if you need it, then you probably will never leave your house out of fear. But fortunately most cops are honest, most pilots are competent, most buildings are designed and built reasonably well. And, unless you're sitting in a prison, most of the people surrounding you at any given time are not violent criminals.

But you know what? Most people will never have their house burn down, but they have smoke detectors, and fire extinguishers and property insurance and nobody says they're paranoid for taking those measures. Most people will never have their homes broken into, but still everyone takes precautions by having locks on their doors and windows, maybe an alarm system, motion sensor lights. But nobody says they're paranoid for doing so. Most people are never involved in catastrophic auto wrecks, but still we buckles our seatbelts, buy cars with air bags and seek those with good safety ratings. If you've never been sick a day in your life, are you paranoid for maintaining health insurance? Is it paranoia if you have a first aid kit? Have taken CPR class? Carry a spare key when you've never locked yourself out?

In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force.

In 2010, an estimated 1,246,248 violent crimes occurred nationwide...
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Re: Armed Citizens Offending With Guns

Postby Bland » Sun May 06, 2012 3:50 am

Hey, Doucherousman-My thread, my rules. That's how you operate, so I get to do the same. Therefore, I am unwilling to engage any of the things you have to say because they are offtopic. Brady laws? Irrelevant. Lawful possession? Who cares? Good guys vs. bad guys? Inapplicable! There is no context allowed on this thread. No subtlety and no engaging the wider issues. You have not lifted a finger to challenge my original premise if you've noticed.

You must be the only dumb fuck who doesn't understand a phrase like "Citizens offending with guns." Not only do I write according to my schedule, not yours, I get to choose all the parameters of this discussion. Any points of view other than mine are completely irrelevant and immaterial. Isn't that obvious, ya dumb fuck?

Dangerousman wrote:In 2010, an estimated 1,246,248 violent crimes occurred nationwide...
I know! Someone should start a thread about all the innocent people who get hurt!
Next, I plan to tally up all the innocent people who have been hurt because someone else has a fire extiguisher, property insurance, door locks, secured windows, a seatbelt, an air bag, some health insurance, a first aid kit, and a spare key. Be careful! A key is not necessarily any less deadly than a gun!
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