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The gun thread

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Re: The gun thread

Postby alpuz » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:47 pm

Who are they, Meade? Who are the normal minds? Adam Lanza? Will he defend themselves, their families, and neighbors.

Fuck you, Meade.. hope you're cashing in, kid.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Meade » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:52 am

Peace be with you, alpuz, whoever you are.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:09 am

But in normal minds, the point is to have it in the hands of people who will defend themselves, their families, and neighbors.


Ah, the noble savage, king of the wild frontier...

You skipped defending their honor, by the way. If you let that happen again your own honor is toast.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Meade » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:38 am

“You know, if I was living out on a farm in Iowa, I’d probably want a gun, too. When somebody just drives up into your driveway and you’re not home, you don’t know who these people are, you don’t know how long it’s going to take for the sheriffs to respond, I can see what you’d want some guns for protection.”
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Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:02 pm

Stebben84 wrote:So the point is to put it in the hands of people who will fight the "armed forces" as you put it.

Or their overbearing relatives.
Police responding to a domestic disturbance call found a man struggling to restrain his grandson, who was agitated and holding an AR-15. The cops shot grandpa.

There are 50 more incidents in this week's edition of Gun Fail.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:30 pm

Meade quotes Michelle wrote:“You know, if I was living out on a farm in Iowa, I’d probably want a gun, too. When somebody just drives up into your driveway and you’re not home, you don’t know who these people are, you don’t know how long it’s going to take for the sheriffs to respond, I can see what you’d want some guns for protection.”


You seem to think someone is trying to prevent Michelle from having her gun on her farm in Iowa. Tinfoil hat night again, eh?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Meade » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:28 pm

snoqueen wrote:You seem to think someone is trying to prevent Michelle from having her gun on her farm in Iowa. Tinfoil hat night again, eh?

Someone did try to prevent Michelle from having her gun in Chicago and DC.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:28 am

snoqueen wrote:You seem to think someone is trying to prevent Michelle from having her gun on her farm in Iowa.


Well, that kinda depends on what kind of gun she has, no? I mean, if she was most comfortable with an AR-15, there are people trying to prevent her from having that gun.

And there are a whole slew of other factors that could also prevent her from having her gun, on the farm or anywhere in America. Did she get busted for writing some really bad checks? Does she get high? Did a crazy neighbor throw a restraining order on her? When was the last time she was under the care of a psychiatrist? There are many-many different ways for someone to have their Second Amendment rights revoked, often times for life.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:11 am

penquin wrote: When was the last time she was under the care of a psychiatrist? There are many-many different ways for someone to have their Second Amendment rights revoked, often times for life.

I'll answer that question. No. Only if a person has been declared a mental defective by a court or has been committed to a mental institution. Merely being under the care of a pyschiatrist does not prevent a person from possessing a firearm.

You are crying wolf.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:27 am

Someone did try to prevent Michelle from having her gun in Chicago and DC.


And Mr. Innuendo thinks this is a bad thing and there ought to be more guns in Chicago and DC?

What do the people in those cities think about more guns?

---
A lot of our gun issues are issues of context and geography, and to ignore that context is to miss a whole lot of support and detail in the long run. Right now we are not discussing our west-east, north-south, urban-rural, male-female, and racial differences because the Second Amendment screamers have managed to channel the whole discussion in one direction, but it won't stay squelched forever.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:19 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Merely being under the care of a pyschiatrist does not prevent a person from possessing a firearm.


You as sure about that as you are sure about you personally being legally allowed to possess a firearm?

Iowa itself is pretty lenient, but there are other states that will revoke Second Amendment for far less than actually being committed to a mental institution and/or being declared a defective. Qualifying conditions in other states include simply having been "diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorders", with no need for a court order. Other states simply list "mentally ill" as a reason for removing this basic right.

All that aside, even if you want to quibble over that one detail, there still are plenty of people who are trying to take away Michelle's guns...regardless of where she lives. Unfortunately, we can't have a discussion about that without being labeled as mentally ill (paranoid) and/or a "screamer".
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Re: The gun thread

Postby BSH » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:53 pm

DCB wrote:So, because Adam Lanza killed himself with the Glock, we shouldn't get all upset over the 27 people he killed with the rifle?
Your disingenuousness knows no bound.


Wait a second. Aren't you arguing that a scary rifle ban is okay because it would prevent shootings? But you're doing so without any evidence. Yet you call me disingenuous? If you don't show any evidence to support your view, aren't you the one being disingenuous? Is there any evidence that taking a single weapon away from somebody armed with multiple pistols, semiauto shotgun, and rifle would save even a single life? Never mind evidence, is there even a rational basis to believe it?

Obviously, the answer to the last question is no. I'd love to see what sorts of rationalizations and sophistry you might employ to concoct something that sounds reasonable.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby fisticuffs » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:57 pm

Aren't you arguing that a scary rifle ban is okay because it would prevent shootings?


No. Reduce casualties.

Nancy Lanza bought that gun after the assault rifle ban. Had it been extended Lanza wouldn't have been able to use one in this event and it's more than reasonable to speculate he would have killed less with less powerful weapons. If that's not the case then what is the point of an assault rifle?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby O.J. » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:36 pm

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Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:14 pm

BSH wrote:Aren't you arguing that a scary rifle ban is okay because it would prevent shootings?

No. As I said previously, I support a ban on assault weapons (or any LCM weapon), not the imaginary 'scary rifle' ban that exists only in your imagination. In fact, what I said was:
not because they "look scary", as you put it. Because they make it easy for crazy and violent people to commit mass murder. Something that most reasonable people find abhorrent.

A ban wouldn't make it impossible to commit mass murder, just less likely, or (as fisticuffs points out) with less casualties.

I'm not sure what evidence would convince you that a weapon designed for combat is going to inflict more casualties than a hunting rifle, since most rational people understand that this is in fact the whole fucking point of using an assault weapon. Even the disturbed Adam Lanza understood what apparently is beyond your grasp - that the AR-15 was the most deadly weapon in his arsenal.

Here is what the author of that NIJ you've referred to actually says:
"Assault weapons were rarely used in gun crimes even before the ban," he said in the report. But he also concluded that the prohibition on high-capacity magazines might have affected public safety, because such magazines allow shooters to inflict more damage.

"Tentatively I was able to show that guns associated with large-capacity magazines tended to be associated with more serious crimes, more serious outcomes," he said.
(my emphasis).
So, its incorrect to say that a ban on AW would have "no effect".

Here's another persepective:
"When you double and triple the amount of the clip size, you don't double or triple the number of deer you kill, you double and triple the amount of innocent people who are killed in shootings like this," said Goddard, 25, who was shot four times by Cho.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 0121406431

Oh, and BTW,
That article shows other evidence that the original AW ban was effective in reducing the number of AW used by criminals.
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