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The gun thread

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:22 pm

DMan, I was talking about our constitutional government and you want to muddle that by bringing up North Korea, which has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Every time you are put on the spot, you go off on a wild tangent.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Bland » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:31 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I understand what he wrote very well... better than he does actually, since I recognize it as obvious circular and fallacious argumentation.

Why don't you explain what is circular about it then? Walk us through it. None of that "it's obvious" crap. You think we're all morons anyway, so explain it to us like we are, please.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:38 pm

I'd kinda like it explained too, please. I actually do sometimes have trouble seeing some types of circular logic and I'm usually grateful when it's spelled out for me.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:05 pm

"The constitution says we can have guns so we must have all imaginable kinds of guns so we can shoot people who disagree with our interpretation of the constitution. Moreover we get to remain anonymous, just because. Also, there must be no way to find out how we got the guns or where they end up later on, and we are rarely to blame if they get used to shoot other people and do not have to take any particular measures to ensure they are not so used."

That's my guess, though I'm sure I missed some details.
Last edited by snoqueen on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby david cohen » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:56 pm

Since the NRA rates members of Congress with regards to their support of NRA policies, it's time to make those ratings more public.
I bet we can take down more than a few NRA stalwarts and change this game.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby SlayerDave » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:27 pm

david cohen wrote:Since the NRA rates members of Congress with regards to their support of NRA policies, it's time to make those ratings more public.
I bet we can take down more than a few NRA stalwarts and change this game.


Perhaps if there was some sort of online database?

http://votesmart.org/interest-group/103 ... W8wHrUsk_Y

Oh.

I don't think the people who seek the NRA endorsement exactly want to hide it. That's the point of an endorsement, no?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby david cohen » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:02 pm

The point is to use their NRA endorsement against them electorally:) Especially tools like Rand Paul who called the Newtown survivor families "Props". Yeah, like all those Iraq and Afghanistan War Vet "props". Sickening.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:13 pm

The months since the deadly Connecticut school shooting have seen dozens of gun buyback events across the country, with officials getting thousands of unwanted firearms off the street and sending them off to their destruction.

In Arizona, however, the Republican-controlled Legislature is now moving to save such guns.

Prompted by a gun buyback event in January in Tucson, where a 2011 shooting rampage left six dead and wounded then-U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and 12 others, GOP lawmakers crafted a bill that would require local agencies to sell the firearms to gun dealers. The bill, which has passed both chambers of the Legislature, tightens a 2010 law that requires police to sell seized weapons.

This is Arizona's version of recycling conservation.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:34 am

Image

because I'm pretty sure this is what our founding fathers had in mind.

http://www.zombie-defense.com/photos.html
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Re: The gun thread

Postby SlayerDave » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:52 am

david cohen wrote:The point is to use their NRA endorsement against them electorally:) Especially tools like Rand Paul who called the Newtown survivor families "Props". Yeah, like all those Iraq and Afghanistan War Vet "props". Sickening.


No, I understand your point. My point is, that's pretty hard to do. In the same poll that everyone is citing with the 90/10 majority in favor of background checks, people agreed with the NRA over Obama on guns 46-43. (Q40 here = http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes--c ... aseID=1847)

Obama's approval on the gun issue is underwater at 45/49.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/page/2010 ... HLsPsMLt2Q

Finally, though people certainly have opinions on guns, those opinions aren't strong enough to really move votes:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/161813/few-g ... blems.aspx

Your solution is pretty simplistic, imo.

If Dems actually cared about gun control, they'd primary the red state Dems who voted against it yesterday. But here's betting they won't.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:20 am

SlayerDave wrote:Finally, though people certainly have opinions on guns, those opinions aren't strong enough to really move votes:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/161813/few-g ... blems.aspx


I'm not so sure about that. In that same poll, taxes were rated lower than the gun issue, yet Republicans seem to successfully run on the "no taxes" policy and win with it. Or at least they never fucking let it go.

Also, the question in that poll is "what is the most important problem..." not problems. That question asks the number one problem and I won't argue that guns are either. The top 3 all deal with the economy which is a no brainer.

Just because an issue isn't the number one problem, doesn't mean we shouldn't address it and hold politicians accountable.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby david cohen » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:07 am

I realize that it might be simplistic; however, if it gets another 6-8% of voters out on our side, it's worth it. I am sure it will also get more pro-gun voters out as well, but as polls show, you can be both pro-gun and pro-background checks. I agree we should primary those Dems who voted against background checks. Either they will change their minds or change their jobs!

I'd also back citizens making life tough for the NRA in every way possible: picketing their supporters (gun stores), following their lobbyists and shouting them down, demanding our elected officials divest themselves of NRA monies, etc..anything legal.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby SlayerDave » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am

Stebben84 wrote:Just because an issue isn't the number one problem, doesn't mean we shouldn't address it and hold politicians accountable.


Well, this is just a strawman. I didn't say it shouldn't be addressed. My last few posts are specifically talking about the electoral implications of doing such.

I'm not so sure about that. In that same poll, taxes were rated lower than the gun issue, yet Republicans seem to successfully run on the "no taxes" policy and win with it. Or at least they never fucking let it go.


That's true - because there are a certain number of people who really care and vote only the issue, especially in GOP primaries. (Note how Romney felt compelled to outbid Cain, Perry, and others with a nonsense 20% tax cut).

My point is, there is not such a constituency on guns - or at least certainly not on the gun control side, and I'm not sure the measures David is suggesting does anything to change that.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby david cohen » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:35 am

Dave, I think we're going to see a concerted effort during the 2014 midterms to make the gun issue more important. It will be very interesting to see if the gun issue moves the political dial. Personally, I think the vast majority of Americans don't really give a rat's ass about gun violence, but that might be changing, albeit very very slowly. It used to be "their" (read inner city residents) problem, but it's moving to the burbs.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:41 pm

The U.S. Senate managed to pass just two measures Thursday in the failing effort to craft legislation addressing gun violence, both of which are backed by many gun advocates.

One was a provision to bar state and local governments from releasing information about gun ownership, sponsored by Sen. John Barrasso (R-Wyo.). It would penalize states and localities that reveal data on licenses, permits and locations of gun owners by docking 5 percent of the locality's community policing funding.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/1 ... 10512.html

Well thank fucking God they passed this. I was so worried that we might be able to see data on the number of gun permits. It's not as though I can find out how many people have driver's licenses or how many people have fishing licenses.

I'm sure people can feel a whole lot safer. I know I do.
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