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The gun thread

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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:52 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:But in WI it's not whether the threat was there or not in reality but whether you "felt" the threat. That's an insanely low bar when we are talking life and death.


Not surprisingly you got it wrong again. Try reading the law and get back to us.


The guy in Spooner was under no real threat, shot and killed a 20 y.o. and walked.

Here's your bill.
In general, a person who uses force in self-defense or in the defense of another
person may not be convicted of a crime stemming from that use of force. This law
applies only when: 1) the amount of force used is reasonable; and 2) the person uses
that force to prevent or stop what he or she reasonably believes is an unlawful
interference with himself or herself or another person, such as the crime of battery.
Current law specifies that a person may use force that is intended or likely to cause
the death of or great bodily harm to another individual only if the person reasonably
believes that using such force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or great
bodily harm to himself or herself or another person.


You don't have to be threatened. You just need to "believe" there is a threat.

Not only that, you don't even have to explain that you thought there was a threat. By the sheer fact that you fired the court has to presume you thought there was a threat. It's asinine. This lady firing at the car in her driveway would be presumed to be using self defense simply because she fired shots. The court would have to prove otherwise. It's a ridiculously low bar for murder if you ask me. We will have to see how the story I posted plays out in court. Charged is not convicted.


That's no "bill" that you quoted there sonny. Try again.

Also, what guy in Spooner are you talking about? Spooner the city in Washburn County? Or Spooner the band? Got a link to the story?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:00 am

The back porch killing in early 2012 was in Slinger not Spooner WI, as you probably knew anyway but were waiting for someone else to come up with the right town. (Damn S-cities.) The shooter was never charged.

Here's the link

http://www.jsonline.com/news/ozwash/hom ... 20795.html
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Rich Schultz » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:53 am

Dangerousman wrote:Also, what guy in Spooner are you talking about? Spooner the city in Washburn County? Or Spooner the band? Got a link to the story?


Was it the drummer. I bet it was the drummer.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:44 pm

The very nature of the word "conservative" suggests that they like conserving things. Yet whenever you look at their agenda, they support bills more akin to slash and burn style policies: Destroying the environment; killing innocent people because you "feel" like it; Plunging the nation into deep debt to benefit the wealthy; Destroying international relations for a Lone Ranger "cowboy" appearance back in the States, etc...

In short, whatever gimmick that makes style seem more important than substance in order to get votes while in reality serving corporate donors.

Likewise with the "stand your ground" laws. They ignore the actual effects of these laws to strike a pose they somehow feel makes them appear to be independent when all it is is a devotion to a mental slavery that makes them "feel good" until the well runs dry.

I know it's obvious, but it's nice to remind myself of it once in awhile...
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:39 am

snoqueen wrote:The back porch killing in early 2012 was in Slinger not Spooner WI, as you probably knew anyway but were waiting for someone else to come up with the right town. (Damn S-cities.) The shooter was never charged.

Here's the link

http://www.jsonline.com/news/ozwash/hom ... 20795.html


Oh the Slinger case? You think he should have been charged? I have news for you, he wouldn't have been charged pre-castle doctrine days either. Under any set of self-defense laws in this country it's pretty darn rare for someone to be charged with shooting a stranger who is in their house illegally.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:50 am

Oh the Slinger case? You think he should have been charged? I have news for you, he wouldn't have been charged pre-castle doctrine days either.


Oh, that's fine. Keep right on defending any gun use short of shooting back and forth on the freeway, and on top of it make claims that can't be proven.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:28 am

You don't know what you're talking about. I do not defend the vast majority of shootings. I just read about 5 shootings that happened in Milwaukee in the past day, and I do not defend any of them and I hope the shooter in each case is prosecuted. If I check Chicago news I'll probably read of ten times that number of shooting and I doubt there's a single case where I would consider the shooting justified. You simply refuse to acknowledge that sometimes a person is indeed completely justied in shooting at another person. That shows your unreasonable and extremist tendencies.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:57 am

How about your buddy Jesus Gonzalez, a Second Amendment zealot like you, who is now serving 20 years for homicide?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:05 am

It was suggested earlier that the "culture" needs to change rather than any laws/regulations if we wish to prevent more violence in the streets. So how exactly would ya go about changing our culture in order to prevent more shootings like the one that was just linked to?

Please be specific...thanks.

(and did Dangerousman REALLY say that guy is his buddy or is Mr. Vilas just making things up again?)
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:50 am

penquin wrote:(and did Dangerousman REALLY say that guy is his buddy or is Mr. Vilas just making things up again?)

Here are DMan's exact words:
I know him. He's a good guy and I'm confident he'll be acquitted. He is an articulate and soft-spoken and somewhat shy man who lives in a not particularly good neighborhood. He had been criminally attacked in the past too. He wouldn't hurt a fly without good reason. Unlike the two guys he shot, he has no criminal record.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:02 am

Thanks for clearing that up.

Anywhos....kinda interesting how you totally ignored the main text of my post and instead zoomed right into the smaller text. Do you have any specific ideas on how to actually make any meaningful changes or you gonna just constantly complain and make personal attacks instead?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:22 am

Personal attacks? WTF? Don't be such a drama queen.

As far as meanful solutions, I have mentioned them plenty of times before. Start with reasonable firearms regulations. Universal background checks for all sales. Restrictions on rapid fire weapons with large ammo capacity (including clips).
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Re: The gun thread

Postby diaper daniels » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:27 am

GUNS?? I can't even decide what toppings to put on my PIZZA!!
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Re: The gun thread

Postby penquin » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:58 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Personal attacks? WTF? Don't be such a drama queen.


Yes, personal attacks. You truly are totally blind to your boorish & rude behavior, aren't you?

(and do you really call other fellas a "queen" when you are disagreeing with 'em at the local bar/coffee-shop or is your tough-guy routine just a cyper-thing?)

Start with reasonable firearms regulations.


That is pretty vague. Can you please be specific?

Also, when you phrase it as you did, you are inferring that those who disagree with you are unreasonable. As Carl Landsness recently pointed out: Marshall Rosenberg (world renowned founder of the Center for Nonviolent Communication) claims that using judgment labels like "unreasonable" to describe people or actions is unlikely to resolve conflicts.

Are you seeking to resolve conflict or create/add to it?

Universal background checks for all sales. Restrictions on rapid fire weapons with large ammo capacity (including clips).


By "restrictions" do you mean some folks will be allowed to have
'em while others will be punished for possessing 'em? Please clarify.

Also, are there any other rights protected by the Constitution that you feel a citizen should have to go through a "universal background check" before being allowed to actually exercise that right?

And how exactly would those regulations/laws/bans have prevented the shooting in the latest link you provided?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:01 pm

I'm one who has been saying the culture has to change, or more like the problems we see are the result of our culture.

Before the gun manufacturers got control of the NRA and started to put so much emphasis on their interpretation of the Second Amendment (which has changed, in terms of SC rulings, over time) I wouldn't say we had such a big culture problem. In small-town Wisconsin we always had lots of hunters, and that's a whole different gun culture from this stay-armed-all-the-time stuff we have now. I think the gun manufacturers' lobby is a big cause of this culture change.

Guns for defense in the midwest used to be a shotgun behind the door in a rural farmhouse. Now it's totally different, and it's not just the availability of different technology. It's like deciding to grow all your own food or go off the grid, only this time people are deciding to go it alone in a different and much more dangerous realm where decisions are unreviewed and irrevocable.

Since crime rates over time have been trending downward with regard to many types of crime, the defensiveness and even paranoia isn't correlated with more crime overall. It's more attitudinal, or cultural, or even political.

If you can change a culture in one direction, it stands to reason you can change it in another. Part but far from all the change can be either driven or measured (depending on how you want to look at it) by legislative changes. We've seen how legislation changed the culture in Florida (look back at that Tampa Bay Trib article several of us linked earlier). Actions that once were crimes are no longer. That's not my opinion, that's what DAs and elected officials in FL are saying. And they aren't happy about it.

Other ways of changing a culture start with awareness of where we're at now and organizing people around a symbol of a cause. If MADD can change the drunk-driving culture in Wisconsin (and believe me, it has changed 180 degrees over the past 40 years), perhaps Trayvon Martin's mother can help organize women around attitudes about race and violence. Women are a strong social force and if you can get enough women (mothers) on your side, you win a significant emotional advantage in a larger and much longer struggle.

Another way of raising awareness is looking at how other countries deal with the same issue (health care, guns, whatever), seeing their results, and asking if this is the way we want to go or not. And another way of bringing about cultural change is simply waiting for demographics to catch up, the way it did with gay marriage once enough younger people got of voting age. The very powerful decision for gays to quit buying into the dominant culture disapproval and start coming out was, I think, the point at which the haters started to lose. All the rest stemmed from that process, which put a face on what was previously anonymous and hidden. Perhaps we'll similarly become more aware of the faces and identities of gun violence victims as they get closer to home.

Do culture changes always have to be driven by money and business interests? MADD wasn't. Gay marriage wasn't. I don't know if the legalization of marijuana is or not, but if enough states are run out of money for pot enforcement it'll drive legalization further and further.

So yes, I think there are ways to purposely bring about culture change. The gun lobby did it in one direction, building on forces already present in our society but not yet dominant. Change is gradual and is never complete. Today we still have drunk drivers and gay-haters, but they aren't as widely accepted and glorified any more. Looking at the positive changes we've already accomplished in other areas, I think the record shows we can make progress on this one as well and move guns toward a safer, more reasonable, less glorified position.

I'll let others take the lead on what legislative changes might be good places to start, because this is already too long and I'm saying legislation isn't the whole story. Right now the discussion is focused on the stand your ground laws due to the Martin/Zimmerman case, as the judge acknowledged in her instructions to the jury. So that's an available place to start.
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