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The gun thread

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:53 pm

Finding fault with the machine rather than the user of the machine is a popular past time in the anti-gun crowd. If that's your approach you might as well blame a printer that someone uses to print out the directions for assembling an IED. When books such as the "Anarchist Cookbook" or "Steal this Book" hit the market with instructions for making bombs, counterfeiting documents or money, constructing boobytraps and other illegal actions I guess some people would blame the printing presses that created those pages. Blame the typewriters that were used to author the pages and the pens that illustrated them too.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:54 pm

rabble wrote:
wack wack wrote:A gun assembled from hardware store parts is assembled by you. When you press "Print" on a computer, the printer assembles the product.

It may not seem entirely reasonable, but it's an angle. Crazier things have been tried in court.

The printer fabricates the parts but final assembly still has to be done by hand.


Fair enough. I sit corrected.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby jonnygothispen » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:47 am

Dangerousman wrote:Finding fault with the machine rather than the user of the machine is a popular past time in the anti-gun crowd....
We're not anti-gun. We're pro-life.

...and anti-paranoid gun-toter.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:14 am

jonnygothispen wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Finding fault with the machine rather than the user of the machine is a popular past time in the anti-gun crowd....
We're not anti-gun. We're pro-life.

...and anti-paranoid gun-toter.



.....yawn....
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Re: The gun thread

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:28 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Finding fault with the machine rather than the user of the machine is a popular past time in the anti-gun crowd....
We're not anti-gun. We're pro-life.

...and anti-paranoid gun-toter.



.....yawn....
Yawn indeed! You've spent how many hours trying to convince people, who you knew in advance would disagree with you, about something they'll never be onboard with you on? You want to make a point? Do it with people who share your dark vision of society. I think most of us here see the good in other people. It's our choice, not yours.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where a gun is handy, but your idea of what that is and who should be addressed about it, is distorted, to say the least.

Have a good evening, Mr.D. And try, if you could, to understand that not everyone is as paranoid about the world around them as you are. Thanks buddy!
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:25 am

jonnygothispen wrote:Yawn indeed! You've spent how many hours trying to convince people, who you knew in advance would disagree with you, about something they'll never be onboard with you on? You want to make a point? Do it with people who share your dark vision of society. I think most of us here see the good in other people. It's our choice, not yours.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where a gun is handy, but your idea of what that is and who should be addressed about it, is distorted, to say the least.

Have a good evening, Mr.D. And try, if you could, to understand that not everyone is as paranoid about the world around them as you are. Thanks buddy!
'

As usual you're wrong, well, just about everything.

I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything. I simply correct your errors, point out your lies and state facts that you conveniently ignore. In the end people will make up their own minds, unless they have a closed one such as yours where no amount of reason, reality or factual information matters in the least. I don't make an effort to force or convince someone to carry a gun. I only fight to allow people to have the option available should they choose it. And I want them to make a well-considered choice and to help them be able to exercise that choice to carry a gun in an adult-like, responsible, safe and effective manner.

But your "they're paranoid" approach is frankly boring and old and convinces no one. Thus the yawn from me. If you wish to continue it, it is clear that I have a much stronger argument for your paranoia than you do for mine. What is paranoia? A fear that rises to the level of irrationality. What is it I fear? Becoming a victim of a criminal? I don't particularly think that I'm more likely to be victimized than any other person. Probably less than the average person. But if you pay any attention to reality, you can see that every day in our own community criminals do prey upon ordinary people. So at some level it is rational to fear criminals even in our relatively safe little community. They're not phantoms, they're real and they do victimize people daily. Not only are criminals real, but so are dangerously mentally unstable people, jealous ex's, and creepy stalkers and disgruntled employees. All of these people exist and they do in fact victimize people and make them live in fear. Fearing them to a certain degree is completely rational. Ignoring them or thinking "it could never happen to me" is delusional. It can happen to anyone.

On the other hand, your fear, social anxiety or whatever sort of strange malady you're suffering from is paranoia taken to the highest level. I don't understand the pathology involved, but it's evident that you fear law-abiding people to the same, or perhaps greater, extent than you fear criminals. That is a groundless and irrational fear. Taking it to its limit, you fear yourself, since you do not even trust yourself to carry a firearm. And because deep inside you fear yourself carrying a gun, it's no big surprise that you fear anyone who exercises that freedom. You find it impossible to have that trust in others because you don't have it in yourself.

You claim that you see the good in people, but that's a huge laugh. You don't believe a person can be both good and carry a gun. Most people are good, therefore I have absolutely no problem with them carrying guns if they choose. You do have a problem with that, so apparently you don't see most people to be as nearly good as I see them to be.

And it's not really a political issue. You may be very surprised by the number of people who identify themselves as "liberal" who have embraced concealed carry. You know most people have realized that criminals willingly victimize people who are anywhere on the political spectrum. Your odds of being a crime victim aren't altered by your politics, because criminals rarely perform some sort of political screening or litmus test: it is not relevant to them. I've had well over a hundred local people sign up for concealed carry classes within the past couple of weeks and over half of them are female. Go ahead and tell them they're paranoid because they live alone, or have a ex-husband who continues to threaten them or they work late and have to walk a distance in the dark to their cars.

Carrying guns isn't for everyone. People like you prove the point beyond argument. If there's one thing about you that I admire it's that you know your limitations and you abide by them. Good for you. I wouldn't have it any other way. Your problem is that you project your personal limitations on every other person.

But carrying a gun is a choice some people have made-- and you either respect that choice or you don't. Clearly you are one of the people who does not respect other people's choices; because you continually try to belittle them for having made that choice. Shame on you to talk say "It's our choice. Not yours." in the same breath that you show utter disrespect for the choices other people have made. The height of your special brand of paranoia is only matched by the height of your hypocrisy.

I'm not your buddy, my buddies don't meddle with other people's lives.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:29 am

Dangerousman wrote:I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything. <followed by many hundreds of words>

So you say... and say... and say.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:15 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything. <followed by many hundreds of words>

So you say... and say... and say.


Oh, that's precious coming from somebody with 10 times the number of posts.

I wouldn't be required to say nearly as much if you guys would turn your b.s. knobs down from an 11. Why don't you take the lead and set an example, Henry?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby jonnygothispen » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:51 pm

You made a lot of false claims about what I believe, Mr. D. You do that a lot. You've also twisted the original intent of the second amendment to a very narrow NRA view, and never deviated from that.

Reviewing these gun threads, and the things I've learned beyond what I knew when it started has only reaffirmed my belief that regulation of easy access to guns is essential for a safe society. At one point you said you shouldn't have to wait for a gun because of regulations that would prevent felons from having guns.

The only question I have left is one to myself, "Why am I wasting time responding when you're that irrational?"
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:14 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:You made a lot of false claims about what I believe, Mr. D. You do that a lot. You've also twisted the original intent of the second amendment to a very narrow NRA view, and never deviated from that.

Reviewing these gun threads, and the things I've learned beyond what I knew when it started has only reaffirmed my belief that regulation of easy access to guns is essential for a safe society. At one point you said you shouldn't have to wait for a gun because of regulations that would prevent felons from having guns.

The only question I have left is one to myself, "Why am I wasting time responding when you're that irrational?"


Oh really? You deny calling gun carriers paranoid?

Despite what you say, it is YOUR view of the 2nd Amendment that is twisted. The view I have stated is essentially in agreement with that of the U.S. Supreme Court. And you NEVER are willing to talk about the Wisconsin Constitution and the protections it affords to the right to keep and bear arms.

By the way get your facts straight before trying to criticize me with them: waiting periods for guns have nothing to do with preventing felons from possessing them. There is no waiting period to buy a rifle or shotgun, even though felons are equally prohibited from possessing them also.

You can walk right out the store with them at the time of purchase. Waiting periods for handguns are meant as "cooling off" periods to prevent someone from buying a handgun during the heat of anger and then using it to shoot another person. Such waiting periods are stupid and ineffective since that same person could just as easily walk out the store with a much more deadly shotgun and shoot in anger. And if I already own a handgun why should there be a delay in acquiring another? Makes little sense, right?

This is typical of the misunderstanding and misinformation you have of firearms laws.

There is no law that prevents a felon from acquiring a firearm except a law that keeps them in a secure prison. The law only prohibits, it does nothing to prevent it from happening in real life. This is true in every state and every country. Even under the most restrictive laws of any state or foreign country criminals are able to acquire firearms. You need to accept that simple reality and that nothing will ever change it.

Simply declaring their possession to be illegal does as much to stop a felon from getting a gun do those "no guns allowed" signs stop them from holding up a convenience store. Laws that impact the law-abiding more than the non-law abiding are not good laws.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:15 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:52 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I haven't tried to convince anyone of anything.


Henry, not everyone has signed on to the concept of thought-control as a means of societal domination as you have so readily. I can lay out fact and express opinion, but any "convincing" is something left for the individual to decide. They can choose to ignore facts or disagree with opinion. If so, they will not be convinced-- and I neither have, nor desire to have, control over that. I'm not certain that you can honestly make the same claim. You WISH you could have that control over others and if you could figure out how to make it work you would EMBRACE it.

You, jonny and a few others are perfect illustrations of the truth of the old adage "gun control isn't about guns, it's about control."

You feel a need to be controlled and therefore view freedom as a threat. And you want to convince others to see it that way too. You're so used to being sick that you consider an unhealthy state to be normal. I know I won't convince you of this, because as I said above, people can just as easily choose to ignore facts and disagree with opinion. That doesn't stop me from stating it. Ignore it all you want, just as you always have. But please accept my "get well soon" card.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:16 pm

So are the two -- not one, but two -- guys who shot and killed their own sons in the past couple weeks in the belief they were prowlers good guys with guns?

I don't think so.

I think they're an example of the extremes to which people in our society have been misled as to the way guns can make us all safer. Two guys killed their sons, two families are permanently shattered, and "at the end of the day, this did not have to happen" (quoting a Florida DA linked earlier).

I think we can't tell who is a good guy with a gun and who is a bad guy with a gun until that gun gets used. Until that happens, all we have to go on is the conditions under which the person thinks he needs that gun. I'm saying these two suburban adults way, way overestimated the danger they were in, and their sons paid with their lives. Unfortunately, there are a lot more guns in the nightstand drawer waiting for a similar accident to happen. We're way, way over armed as a society.

My niece leads trail rides out west, where her guests camp way out in the mountains and she's responsible for their well-being and safety. Yes, she carries a gun. Where she goes, there are not only cougars but also Unabomber types living in solitary, in hiding and ready to "protect themselves" against tourists. History has shown it's wise to go camping in the mountains armed, because help is at least 20-30 miles away over trails passable on horseback.

That's a whole lot different than a house in suburbia.

We need to quit using the second amendment to stir up overblown fear, exaggerated individualism, and, not incidentally, a sense of glamour in gun carrying by some members of society. A realistic, society-wide assessment needs to be undertaken of actual danger, imagined danger, danger from untrained gun-carriers, dangers due to theft of a gun or collection of guns, dangers to children and others who live in the household, and danger due to the perception everybody else is armed so maybe we ought to be too.

Other industrialized societies have much lower homicide rates and much lower gun ownership and, as with universal health care, it seems like they know something we don't. We're way behind the curve here and we need to consider why not only our healthcare outcomes but our gun-violence statistics resemble a third world country more than our industrialized peers.

I'm starting to see guns and gun violence as a public health issue similar to drugs -- something relatively neutral is being overused, abused and mischaracterized with detrimental effects. We're on the wrong track and it leads to less safety, health, well being, and social cooperation, not more.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby scratch » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:23 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Despite what you say, it is YOUR view of the 2nd Amendment that is twisted. The view I have stated is essentially in agreement with that of the U.S. Supreme Court.


Whatever else one thinks about this discussion, throwing in with the current U.S. Supreme Court is no way to bolster claims about not being "twisted."
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Re: The gun thread

Postby jonnygothispen » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:49 pm

Sno's post would make a great op-ed piece.

jsmalley@madison.com
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