MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters · Instagram 
Friday, August 29, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 66.0° F  Overcast
Collapse Photo Bar

The gun thread

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:56 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:And again, you failed to answer the actual question: Why shouldn't private sellers follow the same laws as dealers? Hell, I would get in more trouble for selling a bottle of Sudafed I brought over the counter than I would for selling a hand gun I owned.


You haven't described your "state" training either. Sudafed? If I came to your house you couldn't sell me a bottle without getting into trouble? I doubt that, unless you are running a retail establishment out of your home and even then you'd only get in trouble if you weren't following the laws that apply to the retail sale of pseudoephedrine. Retail means selling to the public, not just a private transaction between two individuals. You can't sell it to someone under 18. I'm at least that old I assure you. Retailers of guns have licenses to deal in guns and follow regulations concerning it too. Private owners of guns, at least in this state, can't sell to someone under 18 and can't knowingly sell to someone who is prohibited from possessing a firearm. I'd say the penalties for doing either are severe enough.



I asked first (actually wack wack did)

OTC medication in WI requires a sale by pharmacist or person working under pharmacist direction. I would most likely not get in trouble for selling you a bottle but I would be breaking the law.

On the other hand if you came to my house to buy a gun, I would not be in any legal danger for selling to you, because the only restrictions are as you point out, age and me being unaware of any legal prohibition on you owning a gun. Since I have no clue who you are in real life, and it sounds like you haven't been able to pass for 17 in quite some time the whole transaction could be done in under 5 minutes, shorter if I have the gun near by when you ring the door.

On the other hand if you go to a licensed dealer not only will he have to confirm your age (just as I should), but he will also have to ensure your legal right to own a fire arm and even then can't give you a hand gun for another 48 hours.

So why does someone whom the federal government has certified to sell firearms have a harder time selling a gun than a private individual? Shouldn't it be the opposite?
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:04 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:You claim that knives can cause the same carnage as guns. Or are you backing away from that now?


Here's my statement: "And in reality he probably could have caused an equal amount of carnage with a knife from his kitchen."

That is clearly a comment about a specific incident. It's a comment I've supported with examples that show it's not a crazy assertion. You choose to pretend it's a broad general statement. But then Henry, you've always shown problems with following along. If I ever said "guns and knives are in all cases equally destructive" I would back away from that. But I've never made that statement because it's not true. In certain cases and situations knives have been shown to be equally destructive, and that is an accepted and easily proven assertion.

Why do you guys avoid facts like the plague? Are they that inconvenient to your agenda?
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:23 pm

ilikebeans wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers and a first aid kit. But I do not experience a constant fear of fire or injury. Do you?

Oh please. Smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, and first aid kits in my home don't elevate the chance of death by homocide, suicide, or accident; rather, the exact opposite. (Unless, I suppose, I were to be looking straight into the extinguisher. But I'd still likely survive.)

And btw, do you really think the Aurora movie theater nutcase would have taken 12 people down and injured 58 others with a knife?

But hey, glad to hear you pack a knife as well. Is that just in case, what, someone wrestles your gun from you?


Guns in my house don't elevate the chance of death by homicide (nor "homocide" whatever that is), suicide or accident either. Maybe I'm not as careless as you. Compare the number of people who die each year from accidental falls and the number who die from accidental gunshots. Huge difference. But I'm not having the stairwells removed or getting rid of my ladder. If we follow your logic those things would go long before guns. So would household poisons, swimming pools, bicycles. Hell, even solid food would have to go since more people die each year from choking on food than die from accidental gunshots.

Suicide? The U.S. has the highest per capita ownership of guns in the world: 88.8 per 100 people. In Japan it is .6 guns per 100 people. Now compare the suicide rates. Japan's is near the top. The USA is considerably down the list. Reality isn't very favorable to your argument is it? sniffffff.....
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:26 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Here's my statement: "And in reality he probably could have caused an equal amount of carnage with a knife from his kitchen."

That is clearly a comment about a specific incident. It's a comment I've supported with examples that show it's not a crazy assertion.



Except the examples you provided have little to no bearing on the specific event we are discussing. In one of the examples the attacker first created a fire to induce panic, then stabbed those attempting to flee past him in a narrow hallway. In another, the attacker rammed a truck in to pedestrians then stabbed those who approched to help. Another example you provided took place across 2 cities in England over 3 days. The last example was an adult attacking and killing school children.

The very fact that you think these examples have any bearing on the specific event we are discussing doesn't speak well to your years of supposed research.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby jman111 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:46 pm

Dangerousman wrote:So you're disputing that knives aren't capable of an equal amount of carnage or that shotguns are more lethal than handguns?

Nope, I'm disputing your assertion that you "avoid changing actual events into 'what if' hypothetical situations".
You clearly do, and for the exact reason for which you claim to avoid doing so:
because one can always change it into whatever favors one's conclusions.
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:32 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
The very fact that you think these examples have any bearing on the specific event we are discussing doesn't speak well to your years of supposed research.


I never claimed they have bearing on that event, but it has 100% bearing in support of my assertion that knives have been used to create equal carnage. That's what it was meant to do and that's exactly what it did. But nice try at missing the point!
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:41 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:
The very fact that you think these examples have any bearing on the specific event we are discussing doesn't speak well to your years of supposed research.


I never claimed they have bearing on that event, but it has 100% bearing in support of my assertion that knives have been used to create equal carnage. That's what it was meant to do and that's exactly what it did. But nice try at missing the point!


Dangerousman wrote:Here's my statement: "And in reality he probably could have caused an equal amount of carnage with a knife from his kitchen."

That is clearly a comment about a specific incident. It's a comment I've supported with examples that show it's not a crazy assertion.


Wanna try again oh well researched one? You stated quite specifically that he could have used a knife instead of a gun in his attack to cause the same amount of carnage. Or was your implication that rather than take a gun to shoot his wife, he could have attacked a day care with a knife? Because clearly this was just a random attack and not targeted at a specific person.

But of course that couldn't be it, because you don't deal in hypothetical situations.

And once again, why does someone whom the federal government has certified to sell firearms have a harder time selling a gun than a private individual? Shouldn't a private seller at least have to meet that minimum standard?
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:45 pm

jman111 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:So you're disputing that knives aren't capable of an equal amount of carnage or that shotguns are more lethal than handguns?

Nope, I'm disputing your assertion that you "avoid changing actual events into 'what if' hypothetical situations".
You clearly do, and for the exact reason for which you claim to avoid doing so:
because one can always change it into whatever favors one's conclusions.


And I didn't do that. I never said "if this had happened instead, the result would have been this." And if you think saying a shotgun would have been more lethal than a handgun is me doing that, you're out of your mind. There's no question that a shotgun would have been more lethal than handgun. It's not even a controversial or debatable point. Really do you want to argue that point? Be my guest. If someone were to introduce variables that aren't as clear cut as to the result, then that's when there's a problem. For example, when someone says "If one of the clients had been carrying a concealed gun that day they could have ended it with fewer people dying." that's when there's a problem. Maybe they could, maybe not. We'll never know. But do you honestly think anyone will argue that a shotgun blast isn't as likely to inflict a lethal wound as a handgun round? No one in their right mind will argue that because it simply goes contrary to every shred of evidence.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:48 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:
The very fact that you think these examples have any bearing on the specific event we are discussing doesn't speak well to your years of supposed research.


I never claimed they have bearing on that event, but it has 100% bearing in support of my assertion that knives have been used to create equal carnage. That's what it was meant to do and that's exactly what it did. But nice try at missing the point!


Dangerousman wrote:Here's my statement: "And in reality he probably could have caused an equal amount of carnage with a knife from his kitchen."

That is clearly a comment about a specific incident. It's a comment I've supported with examples that show it's not a crazy assertion.


Wanna try again oh well researched one? You stated quite specifically that he could have used a knife instead of a gun in his attack to cause the same amount of carnage. Or was your implication that rather than take a gun to shoot his wife, he could have attacked a day care with a knife? Because clearly this was just a random attack and not targeted at a specific person.

But of course that couldn't be it, because you don't deal in hypothetical situations.

And once again, why does someone whom the federal government has certified to sell firearms have a harder time selling a gun than a private individual? Shouldn't a private seller at least have to meet that minimum standard?


Private sellers do have minimum standards and I mentioned a couple of them. Do you think your neighborhood girl should have to meet the same standards as a licensed day care if she wants to babysit? Yes? no?
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:08 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:And once again, why does someone whom the federal government has certified to sell firearms have a harder time selling a gun than a private individual? Shouldn't a private seller at least have to meet that minimum standard?


Private sellers do have minimum standards and I mentioned a couple of them



That minimum standard being the one that the licensed dealer needs to meet. Stop avoiding the question. Why do private dealers not have to follow the same rules as licensed dealers?

Dangerousman wrote:Do you think your neighborhood girl should have to meet the same standards as a licensed day care if she wants to babysit? Yes? no?


Is this where you start your retort that a small child can cause as much carnage as a man with a knife?

Actually if the teenager down the street want's to babysit more than 3 non related children at one time, she does need to become a licensed day care provider. And she still can't go over 8 until she gets a helper and becomes a licensed day care center. Again, more regulation than in the sales of hand guns.
edit: hit submit on accident.
Last edited by Francis Di Domizio on Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2343
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby jman111 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:18 pm

Dman wrote:I try to avoid changing actual events into "what if" hypothetical situations, because one can always change it into whatever favors one's conclusions.


Dangerousman wrote:If someone were to introduce variables that aren't as clear cut as to the result, then that's when there's a problem.

Like, if he had been carrying only a knife he could have inflicted just as much carnage, right?

Like introducing that kind of variable in order to favor one's conclusions, right?

I thought so.
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:16 pm

Why do private dealers not have to follow the same rules as licensed dealers?


If they did, then where would a guy who wants to shoot his wife right now get a gun? He's got a right to be armed, you know.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11425
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby jman111 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:12 pm

Van Hollen says changing gun law unnecessary after Brookfield shooting
Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen says changing the law would be too hard to enforce.

"Who is to draw the line between, 'I sold you a firearm, I loaned you a firearm, I've given you a firearm, you've taken the firearm from me?' " asked Van Hollen.

"Not to mention, you could try to close every presumed loophole you can, and people who want to do these things are going to find a way to do it."

Enforcing the laws justified by the War on Drugs is pretty "hard" too.

Just sayin'.
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: The gun thread

Postby ilikebeans » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:20 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Guns in my house don't elevate the chance of death by homicide (nor "homocide" whatever that is), suicide or accident either. Maybe I'm not as careless as you.

Oh I see. Are your guns inoperable replicas? Permanently locked away with no chance of anyone getting to them? Encased in concrete?

The chances of my guns elevating the chances of death in my household are zero. They don't exist. I also have told those potential visitors that I know are likely to carry that they are to keep their sidearms either in their home or car. Will this completely eliminate any chance of a problem? No, but since a gun in the home is far more likely to be used against one of the occupants than in self-defense, I don't have them.

But please go on about the non-optional things in life that might eventually kill me, like eating.

Dangerousman wrote:Suicide? The U.S. has the highest per capita ownership of guns in the world: 88.8 per 100 people. In Japan it is .6 guns per 100 people. Now compare the suicide rates. Japan's is near the top. The USA is considerably down the list. Reality isn't very favorable to your argument is it? sniffffff.....

Sure, Japan's suicide rate is sky-high. But, as I'm sure you're well aware, their overall death rate via firearms isn't anywhere near the U.S.

In 2008, the U.S. had over 12 thousand firearm-related homicides. All of Japan experienced only 11, fewer than were killed at the Aurora shooting alone. And that was a big year: 2006 saw an astounding two, and when that number jumped to 22 in 2007, it became a national scandal. By comparison, also in 2008, 587 Americans were killed just by guns that had discharged accidentally.

But hey, I expect you'll continue to highlight a few more single-character spelling errors and "sniffffff....." prove yourself a sanctimonious prick. Have at it.
ilikebeans
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2799
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:23 am

Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:16 pm

ilikebeans wrote: prove yourself a sanctimonious prick. Have at it.


It's obvious you have nothing against being a sanctimonious prick. What really bothers you is when they're right and you're wrong.
Dangerousman
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2292
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Madison, WI

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 4 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar