MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters · Instagram 
Wednesday, August 20, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 76.0° F  Mostly Cloudy
Collapse Photo Bar

The gun thread

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:08 pm

rabble wrote:This is an extremely well written article on why we should be talking about mental illness instead of guns.

Personally I think we should also be talking about guns but Ms Long makes sound arguments that our current mental illness treatment processes do no one any good. Not the patient, the family, or the country. We aren't helping anybody. We're just filling prisons.


I don't think the article was against talking about guns as much as it was illustrating (graphically) how important the mental health issue really is. The fact that the best way for a 13 year old child to receive help is to face criminal charges is the worst condemnation of our health care, criminal justice and education systems that I can think of.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby david cohen » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:30 pm

Mental health treatment is expensive. The powers that be either need to make a profit off of treatment, or not provide it. If you look at what's transpired right here in Wisconsin over the past decade, you will see that as costs have risen, insurers have paid less. Federal and state grants have all but disappeared. Counties have been forced to shoulder huge costs, and they can't afford it anymore. The end result is that the mentally ill either languish on the street, unmedicated, or in jails, often wrongfully medicated. The entire community mental health system has been ravaged by budget cuts- Madison used to be the leader in community mental health services. Now the wait to get services is 4 times as long as it was last decade. Local inpatient programs have closed most of their civil commitment programs because the counties can't afford to pay and private insurers won't cover the costs. And now, when someone goes berserk, we suddenly scream about the lack of mental health services. When someone is released back into the community from a program, the staff makes sure they do not have access to weaponry etc. Now, it's just a crap shoot (no pun intended)...if you can even get someone into treatment in the first place.
david cohen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1324
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:48 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:33 pm

The NRA is laying low after the latest gun massacre. They even took down their Facebook page.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19713
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The gun thread

Postby Galoot » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:13 pm

The Onion has a great article waiting here. Something along the lines of "NRA comes out in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment--'we now admit that we've been wrong all along, and the blood of those children can only be washed away by admitting that. Let's pass some serious gun control legislation, now' "
Galoot
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1452
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:10 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby Meade » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:17 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:The NRA is laying low after the latest gun massacre. They even took down their Facebook page.

Is it a confirmed fact that the NRA "even took down their Facebook page"?

Apparently, they still have a Twitter account, Henry V. If you want to harass them, why not do it there?
Meade
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3341
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:26 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:35 pm

david cohen wrote:The end result is that the mentally ill either languish on the street, unmedicated, or in jails, often wrongfully medicated.

A sign of the times: Library conferences usually have at least one workshop with a title like "Librarians as security guards and psychiatric orderlies" in which library staff learn valuable tips about working in a gathering place for mentally ill street dwellers.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6078
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby jman111 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:13 pm

Doesn't it seem odd that some of those who advocate the loudest about ensuring other countries' inability to generate nukes insist that there be no limits to arms possession here?
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:18 pm

I believe the mental health treatment issue is going to be used as a distraction in this national discussion.

1) Mental health treatment is not the same as management of those with mental health issues (for instance, by public library staff).

2) If mental health treatment of incipient mass murderers is as difficult and unreliable as treatment of domestic abusers, we might as well forget it. Anyone who works with domestic abusers knows they're among the most incorrigible and resistant clients out there. Same with "anger management." If someone is not sincerely interested in curbing their anger (because, say, it gets them something they want), "treating" them is a joke.

3) It's easy to draw attention to our poor mental health services and lack of availability, but does anyone seriously think we can start a "potential mass murderer walk-in clinic" and make a dent in our murder problem? Were you hoping for voluntary attendance?

People in this class (potential mass murderers, pre-murder) are going to have to be identified ahead of time. They aren't your walk-in clients. We are doing fairly well identifying potential political terrorists. Identifying potential mass murderers might need to be undertaken using similar protocols.

I'm a doubter here, but let's at least not allow the "we need more mental health services" thing overshadow the bigger question, which is overmarketing and overselling of assault weapons.

4) Limitations on the marketing of cigarettes have done good in reducing the number of smokers in this country. Maybe a tiny part of our murder problem could be addressed through a discussion of how certain firearms are marketed. The Marlboro Man is dead. Maybe the Bushmaster Man ought to follow him.

Mass murder, like domestic violence, can be regarded as a public health issue same as cigarettes, to a degree.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11395
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:08 pm

snoqueen wrote:I believe the mental health treatment issue is going to be used as a distraction in this national discussion.
...
I'm a doubter here, but let's at least not allow the "we need more mental health services" thing overshadow the bigger question, which is overmarketing and overselling of assault weapons.
...
Mass murder, like domestic violence, can be regarded as a public health issue same as cigarettes, to a degree.

yup.

Because I'd rather read what Pierce thinks than actually watch any of those Sunday TV shows, I'll just quote:
Charles Pierce wrote:Chaffetz, of course, has all the public-health cred of the average botulism bacillus, but, if he can talk about improving access to mental-health care, the federal funding for which he never would vote for in a million years, then he won't have to talk about gun laws that he wouldn't vote for, either.


Read more: Sunday Talk Shows On Newtown Shooting - What Are The Gobshites Saying These Days? - Esquire http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/s ... z2FMCywBLi

I'm all for improved mental health services. But maybe we can do good things at the same time.
DCB
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2607
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby david cohen » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:26 pm

While I tend to agree that the mental health aspect of homicidal maniacs will be used to divert attention away from gun laws, I also think that in these recent cases, the two issues worked concurrently to effect the outcome.
david cohen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1324
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:48 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:10 pm

snoqueen wrote:I believe the mental health treatment issue is going to be used as a distraction in this national discussion.

1) Mental health treatment is not the same as management of those with mental health issues (for instance, by public library staff).

No. The staff at public places, the police, and the country in general are paying the price for the absence of mental health treatment.

Then we add unlimited guns to the mix and what we get is what we got.

In my own humble opinion, if we did some real work on either one of those we'd see an amazing and immediate reduction in violent deaths. But that's not going to happen.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6078
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby david cohen » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:43 pm

Of course it won't happen Rabble. The firearms industry isn't going to budge and the privatized mental health system costs too much for your average person to access. I have a close friend who's teenager is dealing with some serious mental health issues. The cost of treatment at a private, inpatient facility is close to $9k/month, ALL OUT OF POCKET. And that's cheap!
david cohen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1324
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:48 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby Mad Howler » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:12 am

Meade wrote:Is it a confirmed fact that the NRA "even took down their Facebook page"?

Apparently, they still have a Twitter account...


Yes and not so much currently.

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/20 ... witter.php

p.s.- I think that you are capable of constructive efforts.
Mad Howler
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1308
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:36 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby jman111 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:08 am

I wonder why the guy who was so up-in-arms about a front door not being locked (as it related to a recent local shooting) hasn't mentioned anything about an apparent lack of effective use of a gun safe or trigger locks by the CT shooter's mother. Seems like selective outrage, no?
jman111
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:43 pm
Location: Dane County

Re: The gun thread

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:25 am

jman111 wrote: Seems like selective outrage, no?


Selective outrage from Meade. I'm shocked I tell you. Purely shocked.
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4811
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar