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Shooting outside church key/segredo

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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby bdog » Mon May 21, 2012 9:50 pm

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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby cmvortex » Mon May 21, 2012 10:26 pm

Thanks, detritus, for the excellent resource that I will be sure to play around with. And bdog, that is a great article. Makes me want to find a way to get involved somehow, maybe in math tutoring
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby pjbogart » Mon May 21, 2012 11:02 pm

Is it possible that we're simply seeing another scattering of the worst elements of Madison? In the mid 90's it was Sommerset Circle, the late 90's saw Grenada Way and Simpson Street, the mid 2000's it was Allied Drive. They crack down on a neighborhood, force some evictions, perhaps tear down some trouble buildings and scatter the problem as best they can. Suddenly it's in your backyard but it doesn't say much about Madison as a whole, it just says something about your backyard.

White trash, Black trash, Hispanic trash... it's not so much a color thing as a socio-economic thing. Anywhere you find a concentration of cheap apartments, you find a concentration of crime. Why is this? It's because people who don't own their homes take less care to protect their neighborhood. Why make waves and become a target when you can just move to a different neighborhood? If you own your home, you're protecting your investment by calling the police. If you don't, it's probably easier to just move and protect your skin.

I can't help but read some insinuations into the questions about demographics. More Black people equals more crime, right? Actually, it is somewhat true, but not for the reasons you think. Madison, unlike larger cities, does not have "middle class Black neighborhoods." So in Madison, "predominantly Black" means "predominantly poor." Poor neighborhoods have more crime, for the reasons I mentioned, which is why mixed-use zoning is so critical to controlling crime. If you build a street with 300 apartments, even if they're new and spiffy, in 20 years it will be a ghetto. If you build a street with 50 apartments, 50 condominium units and 50 privately owned single-family dwellings, people will protect their investments and keep the neighborhood clean.

Black people don't like living in crime infested neighborhoods any more than white people. But if you're poor and everyone within four blocks of you is poor too, you're bound to see a lot of crime. If you're poor but you live next to a family with a cat, dog, 2.3 children and a white picket fence, it encourages you to be a bit more responsible too. And your kids will benefit.
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby Remember_Me » Tue May 22, 2012 11:25 am

Someone put it to me quite bluntly over the weekend.

These thugs are no longer spending their nights in the basement in makeshift studios aspiring to be rich and famous rappers because there's no money in the music selling business anymore.

It actually kinda made sense to me.
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby wack wack » Tue May 22, 2012 11:31 am

Crockett wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:
Also, your premise is mildly offensive.


As is yours which makes poor people out to be nothing more than stray cats looking for someone handing out milk.


Have you ever been to an all-you-can-eat buffet? Or a sporting event where they give out free t-shirts? Or the Black Friday sale at Best Buy? Or a professional conference where the exhibitors are handing out trinkets?

Or anywhere they are handing out free 'milk? Stray cats are part of every level of society. Its human nature.


In my experience, those with the most are often first in the "free" line.
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue May 22, 2012 7:33 pm

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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed May 23, 2012 8:59 am

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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby Crockett » Wed May 23, 2012 9:12 am

pjbogart wrote:More Black people equals more crime, right? Actually, it is somewhat true, but not for the reasons you think. Madison, unlike larger cities, does not have "middle class Black neighborhoods." So in Madison, "predominantly Black" means "predominantly poor."


Why is this? Why is the black community in Madison disproportionately poor? If true, what attracts only poor blacks to Madison and not 'middle class' blacks?

While I agree that socio-economics play a very large part, there are plenty of poor across Wisconsin that don't have the crime rates of Madison's lower socio-economic brackets.
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby Crockett » Wed May 23, 2012 9:15 am

fisticuffs wrote:
The facts are the facts

I know this is conversation a rabbit hole so save the 'it's their upbringing/history of exclusion/slavery/poverty/etc' screams


And those are part of the facts. I think what you must have meant to type is "The facts I choose to consider are the facts I choose to consider whilst asking others not to bring up any other important facts".

You don't cure disease by only treating the symptoms.


Your facts become theory when you take the step to use them to explain/excuse violence.

My fact (that much of the violent crime in Madison is committed by young, black males) remains fact.
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby fisticuffs » Wed May 23, 2012 9:17 am

Your facts become theory when you take the step to use them to explain/excuse violence.


That's right. Because "why" is a more thoughtful and useful question than "what".
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby fisticuffs » Wed May 23, 2012 9:19 am

Woman who was shot recalls scene outside nightclub


Thank god they disabled commenting on this story. I can only imagine what kind of comments would be lobbed at this gun shot victim by the regular cast of commenters on madison.com
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby pjbogart » Wed May 23, 2012 10:08 am

Crockett wrote:Why is this? Why is the black community in Madison disproportionately poor? If true, what attracts only poor blacks to Madison and not 'middle class' blacks?

While I agree that socio-economics play a very large part, there are plenty of poor across Wisconsin that don't have the crime rates of Madison's lower socio-economic brackets.


Black people in Madison who earn a good income live in the same places where everyone else lives at that income bracket. If you had a $60k/year job, why would you move into a poor neighborhood made up exclusively of dilapidated apartments?

I don't have solutions for all of the problems afflicting poor communities. Mixed use zoning is one that seems to work, so I mentioned that one. Some problems need to be tackled within the community, such as single parent households (which logically means lower family income).

Let me tell you what doesn't work. Cutting funds for public education doesn't work. Cutting funds for preschool, daycare and after school programs like Head Start doesn't work. Cutting funds for health services like Planned Parenthood or Badgercare doesn't work. Basically, everything Republicans stand for makes it harder for desperately poor people to move up the income ladder or at the very least give their kids the opportunity to avoid the same fate.
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby peripat » Wed May 23, 2012 10:47 am

And no available entry level jobs doesn't help either. I don't remember the exact number but people who are not 'work force ready' typically go thru a number of low paying jobs (maybe 6 or 8) before developing the skills (showing up, showing up & leaving on time, actually working) that people need to advance. If you don't have those 'learning' jobs you have people who will be permanently locked outside of the labor market.
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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby Mean Scenester » Wed May 23, 2012 1:55 pm

pjbogart wrote:Let me tell you what doesn't work. Cutting funds for public education doesn't work. Cutting funds for preschool, daycare and after school programs like Head Start doesn't work. Cutting funds for health services like Planned Parenthood or Badgercare doesn't work. Basically, everything Republicans stand for makes it harder for desperately poor people to move up the income ladder or at the very least give their kids the opportunity to avoid the same fate.

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Re: Shooting outside church key/segredo

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri May 25, 2012 9:50 am

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