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Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

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Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby Beaver » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:07 am

Another senseless mass shooting in the Milw suburbs. Republican cities are dangerous. WI isn't looking good to the rest of the nation...Oak Creek, Brookfield, Ryan, Walker...
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby Igor » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:38 am

Classy.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby kurt_w » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:31 am

Come on, Beav. Not everything needs to be shamelessly politicized. That's the kind of stupid post you'd expect to see from someone like Flanders.

Radcliffe Haughton seems like a guy with a history of violence, particularly domestic violence. I think that's the source of the problem here, not the voting history of the zip code he lived in.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby jman111 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:49 am

The moral of the story is that this can happen anywhere. It's truly disturbing.

This one hits very close to home for me. I grew up about a mile from this place (it was an empty lot back then). We'd ride our bikes to the McDonald's that's next door. I'd swim in my friend's pool that's about 100 yds away. Just this summer my mother was given a gift certificate for this salon and spa. My heart goes out to the victims' families.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby snoqueen » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:43 am

It really can happen anywhere. Madison has had several domestic-violence deaths in the last few years, including the guy who apparently strangled his two boys in his car. While we haven't had one with as much harm to bystanders as the Milwaukee incident, nothing says it won't happen today or tomorrow.

We need to discuss why so many of these offenders are ex-military, and how military training and procedures might be improved to the point that, upon release from service, veterans are not only properly assessed and debriefed, but assured of ongoing support and treatment if they're experiencing PTSD, uncontrollable anger, extreme personal isolation, or any other behaviors found to be associated with lethal outbursts of violence.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:59 pm

snoqueen wrote:It really can happen anywhere. Madison has had several domestic-violence deaths in the last few years, including the guy who apparently strangled his two boys in his car. While we haven't had one with as much harm to bystanders as the Milwaukee incident, nothing says it won't happen today or tomorrow.

We need to discuss why so many of these offenders are ex-military, and how military training and procedures might be improved to the point that, upon release from service, veterans are not only properly assessed and debriefed, but assured of ongoing support and treatment if they're experiencing PTSD, uncontrollable anger, extreme personal isolation, or any other behaviors found to be associated with lethal outbursts of violence.


There are a lot of resources available to veterans. Won't do much good if they don't take advantage of them. Veteran or not, the people who are in the best position to judge whether a person is going dangerously over the edge are family members and close friends. Anyone know the details of Haughton's military service? Combat veteran? Supply room clerk at Fort Lewis? Big difference in the potential mental fallout.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:15 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
snoqueen wrote:It really can happen anywhere. Madison has had several domestic-violence deaths in the last few years, including the guy who apparently strangled his two boys in his car. While we haven't had one with as much harm to bystanders as the Milwaukee incident, nothing says it won't happen today or tomorrow.

We need to discuss why so many of these offenders are ex-military, and how military training and procedures might be improved to the point that, upon release from service, veterans are not only properly assessed and debriefed, but assured of ongoing support and treatment if they're experiencing PTSD, uncontrollable anger, extreme personal isolation, or any other behaviors found to be associated with lethal outbursts of violence.


There are a lot of resources available to veterans. Won't do much good if they don't take advantage of them. Veteran or not, the people who are in the best position to judge whether a person is going dangerously over the edge are family members and close friends. Anyone know the details of Haughton's military service? Combat veteran? Supply room clerk at Fort Lewis? Big difference in the potential mental fallout.


4 years in the Marines after High School. At 45 I don't think that puts him in Iraq in 90-91 or even Panama and Beirut would have been to early. Other than the one article, there doesn't appear to be any mention of his military service or what he did in the Marines.

It seems that there was plenty of warning about his behavior, but the Brown Deer police dropped the ball on several occasions. So far they seem to be sticking with the "we followed proper regulations" story. His wife not wanting to press charges on multiple occasions definitely hurt the situation. Not blaming her. We need a better method for determining domestic abuse than relying on the victim's word.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby snoqueen » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:32 pm

Of course the person's family and friends are the best ones to notice mental deterioration or instability. But even if they notice (if they're even around, since these killers tend to be loners -- look at the Sikh killer's pathetic story) where can they get help? If you ever tried to deal with a friend or family member with acute mental health needs, you know there's close to nothing out there. Health insurance rarely covers anything beyond a few consults and a prescription. The emergency rooms are poorly equipped to deal with mental health issues at all, let alone people acting out violently. Emergency commitments are very difficult to engineer and don't last long -- usually the person has to commit some crime (though small) in order to even be considered. Just ask the cops, who are invariably frustrated by the revolving door system of dealing with the mentally ill.

If the person doesn't recognize his own state and go for help (to the VA, say) voluntarily, what can be done? Often even getting a restraining order (a piece of paper, basically) is difficult and slow.

We've got an unaddressed problem here, no matter how you cut it. It's not limited to ex-military, even though they might be overrepresented in the statistics. They actually have more, not fewer, resources available, and still the problem persists.

I'd also be curious about the Brookfield murderer's military background, but it really doesn't matter at this point. I was asking if there was more the military could do, at discharge time or earlier, to assess someone's potential for mental health problems and be proactive in setting up intervention and assistance on a longstanding basis (years), especially given that veterans already have a right to medical treatment through the VAs. (Potential for violence would not be limited to seeing combat.)
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby Beaver » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:32 am

Also the shooter was originally from Chicago. Maybe we need to keep Chicagoans from moving to WI. Toursists are ok.

kurt_w wrote:Come on, Beav. Not everything needs to be shamelessly politicized. That's the kind of stupid post you'd expect to see from someone like Flanders.

You can call me a lot of things but please don't say I'm like Flanders or Meade. That really hurts. Have I sunk that low?
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby TheBookPolice » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:26 am

Beaver wrote:You can call me a lot of things but please don't say I'm like Flanders or Meade. That really hurts. Have I sunk that low?

Tacky thread title, classless politicizing...quack.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby Beaver » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:28 pm

I'm not seeing what you and the others are upset about. Mass shootings and gun control are very political. That is why there is a 50 page gun control discussion here. Brookfield and Oak Creek are very Republican cities. Yes mass shootings can happen anywhere but in WI it seems like more of a Republican city problem.

As for the thread title, shootings in spa's, churches, schools, are sadly ironic because those are supposed to be peaceful, safe places. Was the thread title offensive? Wasn't meant to be.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby TheBookPolice » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:05 pm

The title of the post is glib, and the political connections facile. Neither are appropriate. But hey, you do you.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:51 pm

Beaver wrote:I'm not seeing what you and the others are upset about. Mass shootings and gun control are very political. That is why there is a 50 page gun control discussion here. Brookfield and Oak Creek are very Republican cities. Yes mass shootings can happen anywhere but in WI it seems like more of a Republican city problem.

As for the thread title, shootings in spa's, churches, schools, are sadly ironic because those are supposed to be peaceful, safe places. Was the thread title offensive? Wasn't meant to be.


Niether the killer nor his main target were from Brookfield smart guy
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby sadiekat » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:15 pm

Beaver wrote:I'm not seeing what you and the others are upset about. Mass shootings and gun control are very political. That is why there is a 50 page gun control discussion here. Brookfield and Oak Creek are very Republican cities. Yes mass shootings can happen anywhere but in WI it seems like more of a Republican city problem.

As for the thread title, shootings in spa's, churches, schools, are sadly ironic because those are supposed to be peaceful, safe places. Was the thread title offensive? Wasn't meant to be.


At least if you're going to be offensive, don't be disingenuous and pretend that you don't know you were offensive. The shooting was a tragedy and if you want to talk about gun control, then let's do that...on another thread.
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Re: Brookfield spa isn't relaxing

Postby Igor » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:39 pm

Beaver wrote:I'm not seeing what you and the others are upset about. Mass shootings and gun control are very political. That is why there is a 50 page gun control discussion here. Brookfield and Oak Creek are very Republican cities. Yes mass shootings can happen anywhere but in WI it seems like more of a Republican city problem.

As for the thread title, shootings in spa's, churches, schools, are sadly ironic because those are supposed to be peaceful, safe places. Was the thread title offensive? Wasn't meant to be.


Obama carried Brown Deer with 67%. So, your sample size of 2 is not quite producing the trend you are looking for. For what it is worth, Cudahy (where the Sikh temple shooter lived) is also Democratic by a similar margin.
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